From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARC4uILrBBoEyeW-wA@googlegroups.com Sat Feb 19 20:45:01 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pr1AH-0000wM-J3; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:45:01 -0800 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf4303191gwb.16 for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=d+i4u7NFDFHR818pU1H5N0IUTaOcsmAh0yonph49how=; b=AZTnPH/lD+XX+woFBeE61F3oRKzM89boMXM4dPqc6/0vxmWt9vuzpbrQcAp7CGe6v0 nMfv+BFvprrBAAEhrtbI9QmgZ/vgjTNjub2HJZSolupDbVK+qIeD192UO+QJeUkigypg 17/X2hseuoe+7LhNKiowu3Tj2pH07MT4/RHPs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4XYeShOpLOafWhLS3V+YCti0U6V3joEty4UgwhNeGGzetQp8xd2MAg683ppkbxnWyC XpojHHFndGhXHysZcwfmzdKgQLUFXHMIVeAUuSJyOcNpl4Xq6YN94Lu9rO/0KCB2c29S CZpp4QhnCb/E6BvIZ0Pt15o3pA/LYIoehav7E= Received: by 10.151.143.12 with SMTP id v12mr192ybn.80.1298177080788; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:40 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls3887220ibk.3.p; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.216.1 with SMTP id o1mr3710wfg.33.1298177079836; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.216.1 with SMTP id o1mr3709wfg.33.1298177079802; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f43.google.com (mail-pw0-f43.google.com [209.85.160.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 28si4179827wfb.6.2011.02.19.20.44.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.43; Received: by pwj10 with SMTP id 10so882412pwj.30 for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.242.2 with SMTP id p2mr6112wfh.372.1298177078658; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.53.5 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:44:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 23:44:38 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lujvo making help request From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd14b04a10667049caf67d7 --000e0cd14b04a10667049caf67d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 5 gismu and a cmavo rafsi does wind up with a huge lujvo, though, but then I think a lot of precision is needed in this general vein, because there are a lot of subtly different viewpoints. "God can be disproven but not proven", "God can be proven but not disproven", "God can be either proven or disproven", "God can be neither disproven nor disproven". And all of those are in some sense the English word "agnostic" if you throw in "and I don't have a belief as to what the answer is", even though they're obviously entirely different. (Although admittedly the latter has the term "strong agnostic" tied to it in English, but still.) mu'o mi'e .latros. .i .u'u re zo'e co'e On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > I think they are, because that other thing, the thing I described, is a > relevant possibility in this discussion in general. Plus, {cevni zasti djuno > tolcu'i krici} and {cevni zasti tolcu'i djuno krici} yield lujvo of > essentially the same length--you don't need ke/ke'e or bo. > > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> I forgot that part in the lujvo. Oops. >> >> Right, (((god existence)(impossible knowing))belief). Lujvo don't /have/ >> to include the rafsi for every gismu in the source bridi. I left out the >> tanru-super -scope cmavo in the tanru because I couldn't remember it and >> didn't think they were vitally needed for understanding. >> >> On Feb 19, 2011 6:45 PM, "Ian Johnson" wrote: >> >> Where'd tolcu'i go? >> >> Also, if you look at the tanru grouping, you have: >> (((god-kind-of-exist)-kind-of-impossible)-kind-of-know)-kind-of-believe >> which seems to be "believe that you can know that it's impossible for a >> god to exist", to me. {cevni zasti djuno tolcu'i krici} seems like the right >> tanru, with the lujvo changing analogously. >> >> mu'o mi'e .latros. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Jonathan Jones >> wrote: >> > >> > cevni zasti tolcu'i... >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --000e0cd14b04a10667049caf67d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 5 gismu and a cmavo rafsi does wind up with a huge lujvo, though, but then = I think a lot of precision is needed in this general vein, because there ar= e a lot of subtly different viewpoints. "God can be disproven but not = proven", "God can be proven but not disproven", "God ca= n be either proven or disproven", "God can be neither disproven n= or disproven". And all of those are in some sense the English word &qu= ot;agnostic" if you throw in "and I don't have a belief as to= what the answer is", even though they're obviously entirely diffe= rent. (Although admittedly the latter has the term "strong agnostic&qu= ot; tied to it in English, but still.)

mu'o mi'e .latros. .i .u'u re zo'e co'e

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmai= l.com> wrote:
I think they are,= because that other thing, the thing I described, is a relevant possibility= in this discussion in general. Plus, {cevni zasti djuno tolcu'i krici}= and {cevni zasti tolcu'i djuno krici} yield lujvo of essentially the s= ame length--you don't need ke/ke'e or bo.


mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

I forgot that part in the lujvo. Oops.

Right, (((god existence)(impossible knowing))belief). Lujvo don't /h= ave/ to include the rafsi for every gismu in the source bridi. I left out t= he tanru-super -scope cmavo in the tanru because I couldn't remember it= and didn't think they were vitally needed for understanding.

On Feb 19, 2011 6:45 PM, "Ian Jo= hnson" <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

Where'd tolcu'i go?
Also, if you look at the tanru grouping, you have:
(((god-kind-of-exist)-kind-of-impossible)-kind-of-know)-kind-of-believe
= which seems to be "believe that you can know that it's impossible = for a god to exist", to me. {cevni zasti djuno tolcu'i krici} seem= s like the right tanru, with the lujvo changing analogously.

mu'o mi'e .latros.


On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> cevni zasti tolcu'i...

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