From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCp_onrBBoE_JSpMQ@googlegroups.com Mon Feb 21 07:05:32 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PrXKK-0002We-Px; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:32 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf5568749wwb.16 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gcxjQ3jJwm2EPZpwB1QjfOv5j9m8DLW5VXXIk9Su4K4=; b=HMopVvcnSRtxT8d9WUcTkOB46i5WVOapmvSBZcmJ2qd6OnPwwkn5yOGFHQg8neKj5W LTsOoBSmFV02d3HC6lI13/DYDmpn2y/SNcT+ILi0aFxuJ/E+Ib9L7BqY0m54WPY3+bhB tSb1npBrWPld8y9oNo9gKVDLzljpvSHJItXM0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=C3mIKGrrkyVAErbcB4bdoOelclthK6iGVc9XJnPAMt33+/4z/dj+dKJZbkZG/dqbs6 2dlwZX2AKqjdTObQPWuRs7Ck+fYYkKVAAkfLIztGSjYL8F2c/+45dXjVSEa6Xgg1tFA/ 7W++JKZyDoTLng+rpYalJy25hhO0N942Z7EbU= Received: by 10.216.163.147 with SMTP id a19mr490789wel.18.1298300713445; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:13 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.13.143 with SMTP id c15ls33004wba.0.p; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.172.198 with SMTP id t48mr157245wel.10.1298300712407; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.172.198 with SMTP id t48mr157244wel.10.1298300712391; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f175.google.com (mail-wy0-f175.google.com [74.125.82.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m79si669022wej.15.2011.02.21.07.05.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.175; Received: by mail-wy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 26so882866wyj.6 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.132.149 with SMTP id b21mr1291754wbt.48.1298300711986; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.54.10 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:05:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201102171403.40004.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201102171622.02738.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 12:05:11 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > 2011/2/20 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> Then I don't understand the distinction you want to make between "ro >> da xebni mi" and "ro prenu cu xebni mi". >> >> Sure, the second one is more restricted than the first, but only a >> little bit. They are both just as nonsensical if taken to extremes, >> since someone who says "everyone hates me" usually doesn't mean to say >> that they hate themselves any more than they mean to say that the >> kitchen sink hates them. >> > =A0 =A0 True.=A0 And if the person is speaking precisely and doesn't real= ly mean > it literally, the should have either a ba'u=A0 after the "ro", change the= ro > to "so'a", or stick a "le" after the ro.=A0 But I also think that is much > easier to be context dependent with a real gismu/tanru/fu'ivla/lujvo than > with with an existential variable. I certainly don't dispute that usually the more words you add, the less you need to rely on context. My only objection was to saying that "ro da xebni mi" was so much different from "ro prenu cu xebni mi" in how much you are getting from the context. The additional restriction that "prenu" adds in this particular context is really minor, because we can normally be fairly certain that anything that hates will be a person. There are much more important restrictions that are still being left unstated. > =A0=A0=A0 But to say that "ro prenu" is only a "little bit" more restrict= ed that > "ro da"?=A0 I don't think so.=A0=A0 There's basically 6 billion prenu in = this > world, and ?? in the universe, but there's somewhere around 2^(10^43) > different ways you can arrange the atoms in the universe.. quite a bit mo= re > "things" that fall under the rubric of "ro da". (I think we are closer to 7 billion now.) But most of them (whether material things or persons) will be irrelevant to the claim at hand. And in any case you are forgetting about the infinite number of things that are not obtained by any rearrangement of the atoms of the universe, (the natural numbers, to name just the most obvious one) which will completely dwarf any finite number of things, so any finite number combination of atoms is irrelevant if you want to compare numbers. >=A0 But I still think it's easier to contextualize "djedi" than "da". Of course, "djedi" contains more information than "da", which contains none= . mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.