From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCNko_rBBoE_8naLA@googlegroups.com Tue Feb 22 06:33:07 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PrtIS-0002ZC-Dr; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:33:06 -0800 Received: by wyb34 with SMTP id 34sf3439773wyb.16 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=GB/+o+bu/zdr56KY4vGf8Xl9Ha7HUTWB8IFGmYFWiIo=; b=ybLCJRLR6mSIZVG5EhnEqfiAvCGBaqVE2CNgMG3KxDWEql0Ygg676/mfmkmc2GyvP1 EXp5Ng1EIy9smRGuGolG4LfnlQ4m5zxoMBDZSIjr6HyW1mt4jwLsLVDGylY30rhQZoHX xtr5r/GCSLl7vGVB9DSYi9EnSyGFRapsvlQU8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=bet0gHB3gywQ+dOB3TEq3JatfTy+Iv7RVsWDso+h0NO5vqRLQZ6phxjiEYywtPpzVP 6nskPe4P6eUNUtIosw6xawku3Yr+jYskDGCijYjv4EEuUzRqHlqlNvkYmTa+5L9wagyd vVevvPobVvqx+qTrVoHdzAv6DqHpDY0tgmfvc= Received: by 10.217.1.198 with SMTP id n48mr703060wes.19.1298385165246; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:45 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.79.74 with SMTP id h52ls98471wee.3.p; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.65.202 with SMTP id f52mr175265wed.0.1298385162804; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.65.202 with SMTP id f52mr175264wed.0.1298385162790; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ww0-f53.google.com (mail-ww0-f53.google.com [74.125.82.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d66si807383wej.13.2011.02.22.06.32.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.53; Received: by mail-ww0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 18so6737996wwi.10 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.11.204 with SMTP id u12mr2442377wbu.135.1298385161568; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.54.10 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:32:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201102171403.40004.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201102171622.02738.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:32:41 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Except that domain of discourse in general is quite explicit in logical or > mathematical contexts. That is to say, you walk into (for example) an > undergrad real analysis class and it is usually very explicit that that "for > all x" means "for all x in R". When it isn't, it's always specified in one > way or another; the original statement of the theorem you're discussing may > be talking about a domain that is a compact interval, and then the "for all > x" quantifies over that interval, since you're handing x to f. In more > general contexts, such as set theory, "for all x" quantifies over literally > everything that the theory causes to exist, such as the entire collection of > sets. > > These things don't bring up Lindar's issue of "which everything are we > talking about?". If they did, mathematicians and logicians would be doing > something else to alleviate it. Indeed. > By contrast, in a general conversation, that universe of discourse is > perhaps not some absolute one, but it is a very very large one, because a > conversation could take twists and turns very very easily by comparison with > a real analysis class. Thus the universe of discourse has to be an > appropriate size to compensate for that. The domain of discourse takes twists and turns together with the discourse. Just look at any conversation in any natlang and see how often "everybody" is meant to include the speaker, George Washington, everybody that will be born in the year 2017, Sherlock Holmes, Santa Claus, and anything else that qualifies as "prenu". I would say not very often. So whatever problems anyone has with "ro da" they will find the same type of problems with "ro prenu". > I really think it isn't so hard, if you want to be lazy, to simply use {ro > srana} and {da poi srana} (I forget, would {lo srana} suffice?). If you need > a binding, {ro da poi srana} or {ro srana goi ko'a} work too. We only need to wait and see what happens in practice. You can't have a rule that says that the domain of discourse must always include Sherlock Holmes as one of the values that variables may take, and you can't have a rule that says that Sherlock Holmes is a value that variables may never take (at least I don't think either of those rules can work in practice) so it's almost inevitable that you will need context to determine what the universe of discourse is. If "ro prenu" can, in some contexts, refer to the 6 or 7 billion people alive that make up the human population of the Earth today, then it can just as well refer, in a different context, to the 6 or 7 people in the room now. There are, in both cases, an infinite number of potential values being left out that may turn up in another context. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.