From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDD2ZTrBBoEQ8POYw@googlegroups.com Wed Feb 23 07:50:53 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PsGzJ-0002kL-RO; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:53 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf7685378wwb.16 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wm6qq5YFm/OBbDPwgE4+cGqRs4HoFPhspfpvVol3nBM=; b=dVrf+ghVKm7kwS7UTGIwWS1urTN+zhuubJ48aOYEZSFclIveiKK6TWTJ4W8RPCTD6V YYp6EysUkYURjeNVQmNirOadBpVHKvosMO1t30YdJ91AD4wfCJPIsudLqzWcHIH0nfR7 A4ar6+TaVMwvC8UZwaqO8eGbL4oaZLx3m0orM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CG3W1uqNROOVuhagEi2Jg18B0XMYyxMYY08m580pe7bGWuyVnu3p1ZqhG62FauWKjw vOXje77exZVh8bagbrfFuCtlQShWO4V9oaxWJP7J0N2wZ/BpiZxFsFfk0r1XtQ0upIOf ooJQur+IxzBKanHVA7OX6wOFvgiT4F/WC4ylc= Received: by 10.216.12.140 with SMTP id 12mr1152518wez.11.1298476227403; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.28.219 with SMTP id n27ls315386wbc.2.p; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.28.8 with SMTP id f8mr271177wea.14.1298476226589; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.28.8 with SMTP id f8mr271176wea.14.1298476226577; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f181.google.com (mail-wy0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f60si962133wes.10.2011.02.23.07.50.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.181; Received: by mail-wy0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 42so2370264wyb.12 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.132.149 with SMTP id b21mr1421117wbt.48.1298476226358; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.54.10 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:50:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201102171403.40004.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201102171622.02738.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:50:23 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/2/22 Michael Turniansky : > > =A0 I don't understand what is so onerous about simply SAYING "ro le pren= u" if > that's what you mean. We were comparing "ro da" vs "ro prenu", and my point was that the restriction to prenu was in many contexts insignificant compared to other contextual restrictions, so "ro prenu" doesn't solve the putative problems with "ro da". English forces you to distinguish "everybody" from "everything" in the same way that it forces you to distinguish "he" and "she" from "it", Lojban doesn't. As for "le", I don't really know how it really works. Suppose you want to say "Everybody will love your dress at the party tomorrow", but I have no idea who will be there at the party tomorrow. Can I use "le prenu" to refer to the people who will be at the party, even though I don't have any particular person in mind? Is "le" about particular values you have in mind or about particular restrictions you have in mind? I don't know. I don't think "le" is well defined, so I don't use it. > You are arbitrarily restricting it to mean exaclty > whatever it is you think it should be retricted, and explicitly saying so= . > So instead of the listener having to ponder, "Oh, I wonder if the speaker= is > really intended to mean everything, or if he is intending to restrict it = to > some context, and if the latter, what context is it?"=A0 He already KNOWS= the > answer to the first part (restricted), and simply has to figure out the > second part.=A0Whereas if you say "ro prenu" you mean exactly that -- "al= l > people, everywhere"=A0 No further pondering necessary. "All people, everywhere" could be more restricted than plain "all people", because it excludes people that are nowhere. It may also make you wonder whether you also mean people of every time or whether you mean to restrict it to the present, since you went to the trouble of specifying where but not when. I don't think "ro prenu" makes any reference to places, so it can't mean exactly "all people, everywhere". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.