From lojban-beginners+bncCIici4jiChCe8ZbrBBoE84JHfA@googlegroups.com Wed Feb 23 17:47:32 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PsQIj-0006g8-MD; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:32 -0800 Received: by qwk3 with SMTP id 3sf161347qwk.16 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-google-group-id:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9nEhtHeUPL/Ill4LMqhQnv8DUkkCgDPyLl2Cn01QRDg=; b=B+kKketqR/SDJGubv76oqYpGhgx83mBK8+tRzihNXZeePo5MzusA1hqij3UsFkpV4e 4dnf+Bqzg23ef1LQh7fVN5UYF3u8t4PWOjK7lLMS0y00zxwDe3MIa21yBumn4+BnTrMs 8RMDq1xAXOgwys/dcUkgrviviKd3yviMo+JYI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:x-google-group-id:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=G9FsSxg36hBf3PkSJ1jRGa11f12H+YXiEm6Y23rQgYNHR7KwCuawar4xeqBgB7GTIV 9NmD4wWyUCb9UP3xus2TaowS35K1bVBivfQ5amHlI+ygZdmazHRG7qr2i/yP1wftmTCK Zz5c80kUbOqlWjq9NBaNkJ/aDxCHgy5aJeBDY= Received: by 10.229.186.137 with SMTP id cs9mr22166qcb.19.1298512030705; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:10 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.179.137 with SMTP id bq9ls976qab.6.p; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.20.68 with SMTP id e4mr24392qab.23.1298512029766; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.20.68 with SMTP id e4mr24391qab.23.1298512029742; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.216.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i16si1785042qco.11.2011.02.23.17.47.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of 00ai99@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.171; Received: by mail-qy0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 19so4092227qyj.2 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.28.199 with SMTP id n7mr195984qac.31.1298512029484; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.11.141 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:47:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 12:17:09 +1030 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] A seemingly simple sentence with layered complexity From: "David Gowers (kampu)" <00ai99@gmail.com> To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Cc: Alex Rozenshteyn , tatoeba-lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: 00ai99@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of 00ai99@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=00ai99@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Google-Group-Id: 94518172 Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn w= rote: > A square has four equal sides. > > {lo kubykurfa se pagbu vo dunli korbi} is an almost literal translation, = but > I feel like it's unacceptably vague for lojban. {lo kubykerfa *ku* se pagbu vo dunli korbi} for a start possibly 'ka kubli fi li vo' amounts to 'four equal sides'.. all {lo kubli} have equal sides. I suggest something like {lo kubykurfa ku ckaji lo ka kubli li re li vo}. When translating from English (or French, or..), you need to be wary of words like 'has', even if you think you know what they mean in the context. In this case, it seems to have prompted you to think as if 'having four equal sides' is the *only* important property of a square. (if you really think that, you could use {pavykai}) > > Starting with choices of translations for the word "square": {kurfa} is n= ot > precise enough, as it can mean rectangle, {kubykurfa} could mean cube, bu= t > not unless context or an explicit dimension place indicate it, and > {pitkubykurfa} is necessarily planar. > > ta'o {sa'orkurfa} seems like a horrible word to mean rhombus/diamond, sin= ce > {kurfa} has right angles but not necessarily equal sides, and a rhombus h= as > necessarily equal sides but not necessarily right angles. > > ta'onai {kubykurfa} seems to be a good choice to mean "square". > > The English "has" means "is made up of", so {pagbu} and {gunma} seem to b= e > the reasonable choices.=A0 I can't figure out which one is more appropria= te. > ji'a, both seem to lack the implication that the parts are all there is, > va'i we're not talking about a hexagon with side-lengths 4,4,4,4,2,1 (may= be > {vo broda noi dunli}). do you think it's genuinely true that a square is 'only' made up of four si= des? personally I suggest that a square is a hypercube of dimension 2. to'u the non-exclusivity of the definitions is probably intentional.. even for most abstract concepts, we don't know exhaustively what they are made up of. If you really want to say that in that manner, what about {rolpau}? (I contemplated mulpau, which is a bit ambiguous; also arguably {lo kubykerfa ku munje fi vo te kubli}; and {zo kubykurfa valsi lo kubli be li re bei li vo} (my favorite)) > > Next, what should I use for "equal"?=A0 li'a I need {dunli}, but should I= use > it as part of a tanru or in a subordinate clause in a tanru logical > connection, or something else? > > Now for "sides", {korbi} and {mlana} seem to be the obvious choices, but > neither seems quite right. korbi seems okay to me-- it's just that equal length/angle relation edges are implied. dunli zei korbi -> dunkoi? David --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.