From lojban-beginners+bncCOib25n_BhCJkJrrBBoEviJD_g@googlegroups.com Thu Feb 24 08:32:30 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pse75-0003o5-Bw; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:29 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf588839gxk.16 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-google-group-id:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=jReSmMLZ8KwUyaj8dzUMq4GUfILvUHvnQOUYDNpWz0U=; b=YvJRTQg5Hx+w7LS/AkWA1WlEJvpQrAUq+PrbB9Ylnl5t60sHQcB+tnyf3PGLyQbBOI rbfhug19MYTouC7L9d/vViWDN7A5p7a8AsEk3auDujax8Npyuhac+JSfDX36jAZcYdx1 0uzoi5MUZMPo+dHeQPZD+7geOpz3YOHWAIAN8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:x-google-group-id:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=DUdb9ttGdKnXn8Uqs2rRrQoR79Eg87ukaYv05dh9tct24jBJvCDzUTv9Z26gyyPjAk D3akDNB9LwxTgdBij/4+0rirSoyONED9rmTWZm94bkwY4LIA5VI6jEL/mUo5AnukOezi nejPWtARHCxVVwYQ40dXLUSQKaLvonbYnOksY= Received: by 10.151.99.19 with SMTP id b19mr231965ybm.11.1298565129423; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:09 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.133.6 with SMTP id g6ls122153and.6.p; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.30.24 with SMTP id d24mr349805and.47.1298565128172; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.30.24 with SMTP id d24mr349803and.47.1298565128132; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gy0-f182.google.com (mail-gy0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a26si3000866ana.5.2011.02.24.08.32.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.182; Received: by gyh4 with SMTP id 4so380290gyh.13 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.191.16 with SMTP id o16mr527579anf.123.1298565126851; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.93.16 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:32:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <543de28e-1f93-40ee-a499-c63df0e1341f@r19g2000prm.googlegroups.com> <201102232335.57096.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:32:06 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: BAI zi'o From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Google-Group-Id: 94518172 Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64f918e1a8b41049d09c1fb --0016e64f918e1a8b41049d09c1fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {naku puku mi briti djuno fi zo nai joi lo selma'o be zo bai} I came across the need when attempting to translate "=D0=A1=D0=B2=D0=B5=D1= =87=D0=B0 =D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BC=D0=B0 =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=B3=D0=B0=D1=81=D0=BB=D0=B0.", which states that not only the candle has stopped burning but that it has stopped burning without outside intervention. I remember that {noda} doesn't work, and I wasn't sure about {zi'o}, so I asked. On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Ian Johnson wrote= : > That seems like a pretty significant irregularity to me; if {no da} fills= a > predicate place, it is as if {na} were put in, but if {no da} fills a TAG > place, it isn't. Or is it that {broda TAG} is a new predicate which is fa= lse > when {broda TAG no da} is true even though {broda} itself may be true? > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 11:35 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote= : > >> On Wednesday 23 February 2011 16:16:00 spermwhale.warrior wrote: >> > First, {bau} means "in langage", second, what you want is "bai". >> > And third, you Alex are wrong, because {bu'a bai zi'o} simply means >> > {bu'a} : it deletes this place from the predicate. >> > To say that broda or whatsoever happens without compulsion, you must >> > say "broda bai noda", because if you don't, >> > {zo'e} will always remplace it, something that does not precise >> > anything. >> >> "fasnu bai noda" doesn't mean "happens without compulsion", it means >> "doesn't >> happen with compulsion", i.e. it may or may not happen, but if it happen= s, >> it >> is not compelled. For "happens without compulsion", I'd say "fasnu >> bainai". >> >> "gau" means "with agent", or "by" in the construction "it was done by >> him". >> See the note "ca farvi gau" at the bottom of jbovlaste: "it is developin= g, >> and some agent is involved". >> >> Pierre >> -- >> The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 Alex R --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016e64f918e1a8b41049d09c1fb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {naku puku mi briti djuno fi zo nai joi lo selma'o be zo bai}

I = came across the need when attempting to translate "=D0=A1=D0= =B2=D0=B5=D1=87=D0=B0 =D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BC=D0=B0 =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=B3=D0=B0=D1= =81=D0=BB=D0=B0.", which states that not only the candle has stopp= ed burning but that it has stopped burning without outside intervention.=C2= =A0 I remember that {noda} doesn't work, and I wasn't sure about {z= i'o}, so I asked.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Ian Johnso= n <blindbrav= ado@gmail.com> wrote:
That seems like a pretty significant irregularity to me; if {no da} fills a= predicate place, it is as if {na} were put in, but if {no da} fills a TAG = place, it isn't. Or is it that {broda TAG} is a new predicate which is = false when {broda TAG no da} is true even though {broda} itself may be true= ?

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Wed, Fe= b 23, 2011 at 11:35 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> w= rote:
On Wednesday 23 February 2011 16:16:00 spermwhale.warrior wrote:
> First, {bau} means "in langage", second, what you want is &q= uot;bai".
> And third, you Alex are wrong, because {bu'a bai zi'o} simply = means
> {bu'a} : it deletes this place from the predicate.
> To say that broda or whatsoever happens without compulsion, you must > say "broda bai noda", because if you don't,
> {zo'e} will always remplace it, something that does not precise > anything.

"fasnu bai noda" doesn't mean "happens without com= pulsion", it means "doesn't
happen with compulsion", i.e. it may or may not happen, but if it happ= ens, it
is not compelled. For "happens without compulsion", I'd say &= quot;fasnu bainai".

"gau" means "with agent", or "by" in the cons= truction "it was done by him".
See the note "ca farvi gau" at the bottom of jbovlaste: "it = is developing,
and some agent is involved".

Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

--
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--
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--
= =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alex R

--
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