From lojban-beginners+bncCK7Yk5CUCxDevJ3rBBoEdrAbUA@googlegroups.com Thu Feb 24 23:46:57 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PssO4-0001Bd-MU; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:56 -0800 Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10sf798440fxm.16 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:message-id:date:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:x-google-group-id:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5WyHToNqf9qHQMth0UaxGNoSdl6S9yxmC8rRTkCcv5Q=; b=UdHws52dZUFdgkHbYfcAY0yhjbMNc/tOaZFLtozMeLQq3B1t297N6gieg8LFSH9aBl D6UJwHmtyPQQU+E1eYW8njyh9U/wLikpz4jgfix5JO8sjE+Mb495Bw8h6lO7pvmx4A1T y5XfL7/BcRfXhKrZFVLiIa1p/jC3qTyxmdb34= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:message-id:date :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-google-group-id:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=YW3HYCWtBV2TNvDVuvcEeeXQRHy/OEvnh6mAO1w9NTxJNGbzmW14PAiIdCaRx8E9wl c/p5itcA5sF4+NFtmpT1nmv0w7da2i2vD+l8mxyvTKmAel86/bnDAMqs+NURw8N4b0nx GAVzOJZImgyX0SfA1e1yQhN11WUdr1HPVdlVA= Received: by 10.223.61.197 with SMTP id u5mr111024fah.38.1298619998237; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.30.215 with SMTP id v23ls591551bkc.2.p; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.123.141 with SMTP id p13mr229179bkr.14.1298619997200; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.123.141 with SMTP id p13mr229178bkr.14.1298619997181; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f71.google.com (mail-bw0-f71.google.com [209.85.214.71]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o17si72640bkw.2.2011.02.24.23.46.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.71 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.71; Received: by bwz11 with SMTP id 11so573694bwz.10 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.72.210 with SMTP id t60mr442023wed.3.1298619996642; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:46:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <12056049.313.1298617316637.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prof15> Message-ID: <00504502d34a992077049d168774@google.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 07:46:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: rdentato@gmail.com To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.71 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com X-Google-Group-Id: 94518172 Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502d34a992051049d168771 --00504502d34a992051049d168771 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes On Feb 25, 2011 8:01am, Lindar wrote: > They seem like nearly unrelated comments, and it doesn't really make > sense. I mean, you could say, "I see two mammals. Everything is a dog." > but it doesn't make any more sense it English. That's not how it would be > used. I actually find it useful in conversation to have {ro da poi prenu} > mean literally absolutely all people. {ro lo ro prenu} seems to be nearly > identical in meaning. Well, you are the native English speaker, not me, but translating literally from Lojban to English to make your point seems unfair to me. Translating {roda} with "everything" is extremely unfair, you should have said at least "all X". "I see two animals. All are dogs" is just as valid literal translations as yours and, please, tell me that in English you see them as two unrelated sentences. In Italian, "Vedo due animali. Tutti cani." is a literal translation that is also absolutely comprehensible. I think those who know other Latin based languages have similar examples. I made this point already. Our projection of Lojban speakers seems to be of a bunch of dumb people that cannot relate semantic elements of sentences. They are supposed to infer the right meaning of abstractions, of gismu that have extremely broad meaning, of lujvo that can be created on the spot and so on, but when they see {roda} they stop, look blindly and see two unrelated sentences not being able to relate an unbound {da} to what has already been said. I guess I had visited another region of Lojbanistan, where people can handle at least the same level of semantic ambiguity of other natural languages and, in addition, are able to shape their thoughts in words much more precisely, as they see the need. It looked a much more interesting place to visit but your mileage may vary. remod -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --00504502d34a992051049d168771 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Feb 25, 2011 8:01am, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
= > They seem like nearly unrelated comments, and it doesn't really ma= ke sense. I mean, you could say, "I see two mammals. Everything is a d= og." but it doesn't make any more sense it English. That's not= how it would be used. I actually find it useful in conversation to have {r= o da poi prenu} mean literally absolutely all people. {ro lo ro prenu} seem= s to be nearly identical in meaning.

Well, you are the native En= glish speaker, not me, but translating literally from Lojban to English to = make your point seems unfair to me. Translating {roda} with "everythin= g" is extremely unfair, you should have said at least "all X"= ;. "I see two animals. All are dogs" is just as valid literal tr= anslations as yours and, please, tell me that in English you see them as tw= o unrelated sentences. In Italian, "Vedo due animali. Tutti cani."= ; is a literal translation that is also absolutely comprehensible. I think = those who know other Latin based languages have similar examples.

I made this point already. Our projection of Lojban speakers seems to be = of a bunch of dumb people that cannot relate semantic elements of sentences= . They are supposed to infer the right meaning of abstractions, of gismu th= at have extremely broad meaning, of lujvo that can be created on the spot a= nd so on, but when they see {roda} they stop, look blindly and see two unre= lated sentences not being able to relate an unbound {da} to what has alread= y been said.

I guess I had visited another region of Lojbanist= an, where people can handle at least the same level of semantic ambiguity o= f other natural languages and, in addition, are able to shape their thought= s in words much more precisely, as they see the need. It looked a much more= interesting place to visit but your mileage may vary.

remod

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