From lojban-beginners+bncCOib25n_BhCgt8LqBBoE0M9vAg@googlegroups.com Mon Feb 07 17:26:15 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PmcLJ-0005M3-F0; Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:26:15 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf3409140gyb.16 for ; Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:26:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=a1IhzT35Y92nvSnIydjMDIyeH8X0SdBgs9tT4Tq8kO0=; b=VwvbCmTHS+3q32RW2HJDiB4du0ajPYTutz+7XfW72CqVYAQTV3bcCfX1OYJB0tDKWl 63xphSwVJMem3i8N6AIEE52wJh5kYC5NHywi1s3bsoBz5EUczjRc8mUWY5+YCYuK83uJ 06A4LEbnks+k/Dqygv5DwijMsQ1q6cSl5eoHY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:reply-to:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; b=uVI6cSiOgmn11MAMxZaHzT4rpj+MvM5q20qVv63VViDBi7iAGd6NmIidhG5+tXYUE/ b46L4jx2X9fj0L2hneKrHapPk9DE/IucaYrtfjRUXEpzevGPRWq87Q7F6AVEb63uigr/ MR5oC9iiASIWv8w57vr8gJuqF6syA5oXZ4u4g= Received: by 10.91.41.20 with SMTP id t20mr1248523agj.4.1297128352096; Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:25:52 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.55.28 with SMTP id d28ls1155403ana.6.p; Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.38.9 with SMTP id l9mr1041281anl.41.1297128351177; Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.38.9 with SMTP id l9mr1041280anl.41.1297128351136; Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yi0-f51.google.com (mail-yi0-f51.google.com [209.85.218.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u37si349143yba.10.2011.02.07.17.25.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.51; Received: by yib12 with SMTP id 12so2397373yib.24 for ; Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:25:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.226.18 with SMTP id y18mr9977003ang.152.1297128348917; Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:25:48 -0800 (PST) Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.137.13 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Feb 2011 17:25:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:25:48 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Conditionals (again) From: ".arpis." To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016369205a6772177049bbb3a3e --0016369205a6772177049bbb3a3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 .oisai ro'e se'i I keep seeming to mess up nelci and djica in my mind. Thanks for clearing that up. On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 3:50 PM, .arpis. wrote: > >> jbovlaste lists {cnixai} as having gloss >> >> hurt in the sense of "wound emotions" >> >> as well as >> >> offend in the sense of "wound emotions" >> >> which makes me think that it doesn't quite mean "hurt one's feelings" in >> the sense that torturing {da} would probably {cnixai da}, and that PTSD is >> {xe cnixai} >> >> Is {da'i} the standard for expressing hypotheticals? I could swear that >> I've heard {va'o} used. >> >> No, it's the "da'i" that expresses the hypotheticals. The "va'o" means > "under the circumstances of". But by itself, it doesn't mean it's > necessarily counterfactual. For example. "mi klama lo briju fu lo karce > va'o lo nu carvi lo snime" Means "I drive(drove) to the office in the snow" > But " mi klama lo briju fu lo karce va'o lo nu da'i carvi lo snime" means > "I will drive to the office if it snows". > > > >> Also, if you already have {mu'i da'i}, couldn't you just drop the {nelci}? >> e.g. "with motivation you don't hurt her ..." >> > > I didn't have "nelci", I had "djica", but yes, you could drop it, but > just because my motivation is not hurting her, it doesn't mean that I desire > to not hurt her, so I was more explicit. > > > >> I feel like that keeps the volitional component missing from "To avoid >> from hurting her ..." >> >> >> --gejyspa > > >> >> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Oren wrote: >> >>> Again, my motivation is fear of malglico, and preference to >>> straightforwardness. >>> >>> "Hurt my feelings" is something that, for example, doesn't really >>> translate into Mandarin Chinese directly. "Hurt my heart," likewise, is a >>> Mandarin Chinese expression that doesn't translate into very colloquial >>> English. .i mi jinvi lo nu both of these expressions are roughly captured by >>> the gloss "to make unhappy." This seems much more direct and >>> less susceptible to cultural mistranslation or misinterpretation. >>> >>> Am I trading liberty for security? maybe. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 14:51, Michael Turniansky wrote: >>> >>>> Why? You don't feel that someone can be impaired in their ability to >>>> feel emotion? ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Oren wrote: >>>> >>>>> Maybe I'm just hypercorrecting phantom malglico, but I don't think >>>>> "xrani ko'a lo ka cinmo" is necessary, when we have >>>>> >>>>> { ko'a gasnu lo nu ko'e badri } >>>>> >>>>> I mean, wounding someone's emotions is certainly poetic, but IMO not >>>>> the most straightforward way to go about making someone unhappy in lojban. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 12:08, Michael Turniansky < >>>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> mu'i da'i lo nu do na djica lo nu xrani ko'a lo ka cinmo cu bilga fa >>>>>> do lo nu toltce ticysku >>>>>> >>>>>> da'i still makes hypotheticdals.. what's hypothetical here? Your >>>>>> motive. >>>>>> --gejyspa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:55 AM, .arpis. >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you don't want to hurt her feelings you're going to have to bend >>>>>>> the truth a little. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Besides the difficult of translating "bend the truth" (I'm probably >>>>>>> going to use {krori'a pe'a}), I have no idea how to set up the conditional. >>>>>>> It's not a straight-up logical connective, and {va'o} doesn't quite seem to >>>>>>> cut it for me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .e'o sidju >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- - mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016369205a6772177049bbb3a3e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .oisai ro'e se'i I keep seeming to mess up nelci and djica in my mi= nd.

Thanks for clearing that up.

O= n Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> = wrote:
=

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at= 3:50 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> = wrote:
jbovlaste lists {cnixai} as having gloss 
hurt in the sense of &q=
uot;wound emotions"
as well as
offend =
in the sense of "wound emotions"
which makes me think th= at it doesn't quite mean "hurt one's feelings" in the sen= se that torturing {da} would probably {cnixai da}, and that PTSD is {xe cni= xai}

Is {da'i} the standard for expressing hypotheticals?=A0 I could swe= ar that I've heard {va'o} used.

=A0= =A0 No, it's the "da'i" that expresses the hypotheticals.= =A0 The "va'o" means "under the circumstances of".= =A0 But by itself, it doesn't mean it's necessarily counterfactual.= =A0 For example.=A0 "mi klama lo briju fu lo karce va'o lo nu car= vi lo snime" Means "I drive(drove) to the office in the snow"= ;=A0 But "=A0 mi klama lo briju fu lo karce va'o lo nu da'i ca= rvi lo snime" means "I will drive to the office if it snows"= .

=A0
Also, if you already have {mu'i da'i}, couldn= 9;t you just drop the {nelci}? e.g. "with motivation you don't hur= t her ..."
=A0
=A0 I didn't have "nelci", I h= ad "djica", but yes, you could drop it, but just because my motiv= ation is not hurting her, it doesn't mean that I desire to not hurt her= , so I was more explicit.

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
I feel like that keeps the volitional component missing from "To avoid= from hurting her ..."


=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 --gejyspa
=A0

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Or= en <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
= Again, my motivation is fear of malglico, and preference to straightforward= ness.

"Hurt my feelings" is something that, for example,= doesn't really translate into Mandarin Chinese directly. "Hurt my= heart," likewise, is a Mandarin Chinese expression that doesn't t= ranslate into very colloquial English. .i mi jinvi lo nu both of these expr= essions are roughly captured by the gloss "to make unhappy." This= seems much more direct and less=A0susceptible=A0to cultural mistranslation= or misinterpretation.

Am I trading liberty for security? maybe.

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 a= t 14:51, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrot= e:
= =A0 Why?=A0 You don't feel that someone can be impaired in their abilit= y to feel emotion? ;-)



On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 1:= 21 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
= Maybe I'm just hypercorrecting phantom malglico, but I don't think = "xrani ko'a lo ka cinmo" is necessary, when we have

{ ko'a gasnu lo nu ko'e badri }

I mean, wounding someone's emotions is certainly poetic,= but IMO not the most straightforward way to go about making someone unhapp= y in lojban.



=A0
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 12:08, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.co= m> wrote:
= mu'i da'i lo nu do na djica lo nu xrani ko'a lo ka cinmo=A0=A0 = cu bilga fa do lo nu toltce ticysku

=A0 da'i still makes hypotheticdals.. what's hypothetical here?= =A0 Your motive.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa




On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:55 AM, .ar= pis. <rpglover64+jbotat@gmail.com> wrote:
= If you don't want to hurt her feelings you're going to have to bend= the truth a little.

Besides the difficult of translating "= bend the truth" (I'm probably going to use {krori'a pe'a})= , I have no idea how to set up the conditional.=A0 It's not a straight-= up logical connective, and {va'o} doesn't quite seem to cut it for = me.

.e'o sidju

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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=

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=

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

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--
-
mu'= ;o mi'e .arpis.

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