From lojban-beginners+bncCMqBsa7nERDT07frBBoE4CMChw@googlegroups.com Tue Mar 01 22:57:30 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pufzy-0002C1-Uy; Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:57:30 -0800 Received: by yxd5 with SMTP id 5sf4567508yxd.16 for ; Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:57:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-google-group-id:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dj9wxvTnuGhRf8Ipiyr/sPjImRv/EC40dRWHOTILKIg=; b=3WDMXPjUHMjnEpFZJmAYMIX4DR4Gr3iZDujGDVYYauaVbEk6bCKnlH4j7rB28NJ7tA zocgi+jPE97vLmTUVijOPvvtuBEw6dmQFSUPiecoHZa32X0e4k2QY6UD9ZUmnQkKUyCh vdGbx04w1voMO2na/roPUtS8Y7usHO6MR218w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:x-google-group-id:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=X5YcKkgMPV4HV8cPf6fvNNoiZdp4oL5akvQXynh1Ss1WlX+18Y+GE6u3A9rRXK78qS iU2Khzu5qWRAigi68QK7BQ+LfJzcKot3KftyemETiDjpFeCOP4WK+e76s6yynGdQbeCw KAst8Ubj/3KA9Ba41rBUC5UnfZwuy3ACUdsps= Received: by 10.150.31.1 with SMTP id e1mr1089721ybe.9.1299048916006; Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:55:16 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls832441ibi.2.p; Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.152.198 with SMTP id j6mr183652icw.86.1299048915365; Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.152.198 with SMTP id j6mr183651icw.86.1299048915349; Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.214.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c4si857128ict.0.2011.03.01.22.55.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.177; Received: by iwn36 with SMTP id 36so5273266iwn.36 for ; Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.34.201 with SMTP id m9mr7258180ibd.81.1299048915096; Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:55:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.25.132 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:54:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <42f9eaf8-897b-499c-89b3-9bef2a378c9f@m7g2000vbq.googlegroups.com> References: <42f9eaf8-897b-499c-89b3-9bef2a378c9f@m7g2000vbq.googlegroups.com> From: Ross Ogilvie Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 17:54:44 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] question about soi and go'i To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: oges007@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=oges007@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Google-Group-Id: 94518172 Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032557a4d6215377049d7a655a --00032557a4d6215377049d7a655a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Basically yes. You could use {ri} and its cousins, but the way you used {vo'a} is much nicer IMO. You don't want {ra'o} though. {ra'o} will change the things you are talking about in your response. Say you are person A, you are talking to person B and B sees "le nanmu" who is person C. A conversation might go like this: B - mi viska le nanmu = B sees C A - xu go'i soi vo'a vo'e = yes-or-no B sees C and vice-versa? but if you use {ra'o} the similar conversation now means this B - mi viska le nanmu = B sees C A - xu go'i ra'o soi vo'a vo'e = xu mi viska le nanmu soi vo'a vo'e = yes-or-no A sees "the man" and vice-versa? When you use ra'o with go'i, you have to re-interpret "mi" and "le nanmu" as if you were saying them, instead of them continuing to refer to the things they meant when B said the sentence. One final note, if you want to emphasise that you are asking about the 'reciprocal-ness' you could say go'i soi xu vo'a vo'e mu'o mi'e ros On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 10:05 AM, zegma wrote: > coi rodo > I am a beginner lojbanist, i've read the seventh chapter of Lojban > Reference Grammar about pro-bridi and pro-sumti and there is something > I don't understand about "soi" ; > if I want to question the reciprocity of the previous utterance of my > interlocutor, can I use "soi"? > If I use soi this way, I have to use go'i to pick up the previous > bridi, then a new question arise ; should I use pro-sumti like "ri" > with soi, or does reflexive pro-sumti of the vo'a serie apply? > > For exemple, if my interlocutor said "mi viska le nanmu" > if I want to ask "is it reciprocal?" > should I say something like "xu go'i ra'o soi vo'a vo'e" ? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --00032557a4d6215377049d7a655a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Basically yes. You could use {ri} and its cousins, but the way you used {vo= 'a} is much nicer IMO.

You don't want {ra'o} though. {ra= 'o} will change the things you are talking about in your response. Say = you are person A, you are talking to person B and B sees "le nanmu&quo= t; who is person C. A conversation might go like this:
B - mi viska le nanmu =3D B sees C
A - xu go'i soi vo'a vo'e= =3D yes-or-no B sees C and vice-versa?

but if you use {ra'o} th= e similar conversation now means this
B - mi viska le nanmu =3D B sees C=
A - xu go'i ra'o soi vo'a vo'e =3D xu mi viska le nanmu soi= vo'a vo'e =3D yes-or-no A sees "the man" and vice-versa?=

When you use ra'o with go'i, you have to re-interpret "= ;mi" and "le nanmu" as if you were saying them, instead of t= hem continuing to refer to the things they meant when B said the sentence.<= br>
One final note, if you want to emphasise that you are asking about the = 'reciprocal-ness' you could say
go'i soi xu vo'a vo'= e

mu'o mi'e ros

On Wed, Ma= r 2, 2011 at 10:05 AM, zegma <hardquannone@hotmail.fr> wrote:
coi rodo
I am a beginner lojbanist, i've read the seventh chapter of Lojban
Reference Grammar about pro-bridi and pro-sumti and there is something
I don't understand about "soi" ;
if I want to question the reciprocity of the previous utterance of my
interlocutor, can I use "soi"?
If I use soi this way, I have to use go'i to pick up the previous
bridi, then a new question arise ; should I use pro-sumti like "ri&quo= t;
with soi, or does reflexive pro-sumti of the vo'a serie apply?

For exemple, if my interlocutor said "mi viska le nanmu"
if I want to ask "is it reciprocal?"
should I say something like "xu go'i ra'o soi vo'a vo'= e" ?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--00032557a4d6215377049d7a655a--