From lojban-beginners+bncCJGY6cDlFhD_yrnrBBoENzzosA@googlegroups.com Wed Mar 02 07:43:14 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PuoCk-0004Px-7L; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:43:13 -0800 Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10sf41979fxm.16 for ; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:43:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-google-group-id:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=gNjhVHTLU/r+LwyiUT6DJ3VOpsEgpsGE2BjYhtGJJaI=; b=4gyh5K+zsa/jEJ3axHwn8r8n1H76ju7E3/d+KA4iNdkHk+32rj7FfWYPc1Rvi77zJH kLR3xkNfoCzjglFHscwFZlAUMFG7FWHMPI4CRWW1IygvHa+ImY8eZiqCjj2WTfP9uO9h b49P2ckcHjpdZI1vUW0S5okrtl2qPqZG/JvIs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:x-google-group-id:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=OVWhFtaSn7YMJrTefzSB0HD2crWjjMjBE5hDdFnjbi7HR7mMAaQeIdJtsYCW3iOR0k TKT0Kr1TnnKWVmOxa1tyCzTFQrhaa1ddxvxN6etPdEp6YAxI/CsZyqP+MFWQ7eiMhGoj Q4ueiRjLGiMTAUjXCqIKDQlBAKfXUI56yknvY= Received: by 10.223.71.207 with SMTP id i15mr12635faj.19.1299080575566; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:42:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.99.79 with SMTP id t15ls1036fan.0.p; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.69.144 with SMTP id z16mr4043fai.24.1299080574503; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.69.144 with SMTP id z16mr4042fai.24.1299080574478; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6si6411fay.2.2011.03.02.07.42.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.54; Received: by mail-fx0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 19so121456fxm.13 for ; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.79.7 with SMTP id n7mr22634fak.71.1299080323428; Wed, 02 Mar 2011 07:38:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.164.34 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Mar 2011 07:31:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <390805.67000.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <9b728267-66e5-4514-8a4c-861c0ca64c93@u12g2000vbf.googlegroups.com> <25cff610-39f6-43e1-b2a3-5124eb438bbd@d12g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> <390805.67000.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: Oren Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 10:31:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Words for Politics and Economics To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=485b393ab865367224049d81b5ac --485b393ab865367224049d81b5ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think this oversimplifies the situation and introduces ambiguity. Let's make some domain distinctions between: - *a policy* -- (a physical, tangible) course of action, i.e. a { turni zukte } and - *Politics* -- (a theoretical ) school of thought regarding power and human society, i.e. a { turni saske } and - *Political party* -- (a specific, particular) community that participates in government in some way, i.e. a { turni bende } So, I would describe "communism," meaning Marxist/Leninist thought as a kind of { turni saske }, and the "communist party of China" as a { turni bende } and the "cummunist Down to the countryside movement in China" as a { turni zukte }. I see no contradictions here requiring "interpreting history." In this case: *China's { turni bende },* who call themselves communist (insert cmevla for "communist party" here), *adopted a { turni zukti *} purported as communist (insert cmevla for "Down to the countryside movement" here), *and justified it as aligning with { turni saske }* communistic political theory (insert cmevla for "Marxism/Leninism" here). There, look! No historical interpretation necessary! .i ta'o On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 09:17, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > For example, the most often-used lujvo for communism has been {guntrusi'o} > based on the idea (vaguely) of having communes ruled by workers (and > peasants). > As a side note, I don't think Communism was ever defined as communes ruled by workers/peasants. I think it's defined as a classless society where workers control the means of production. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --485b393ab865367224049d81b5ac Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think this oversimplifies the= situation and introduces ambiguity. Let's make some domain distinction= s between:
  • a policy -- (a physical, tangible) cour= se of action, i.e. a { turni zukte }

    and

  • Politics -- (a theoretical ) school of thoug= ht regarding power and human society, i.e. a { turni saske }

    and
    =
  • Political party -- (a specific, particular) community t= hat participates in government in some way, i.e. a { turni bende }
So, I would describe "communism," meaning Marxist/Lenin= ist thought as a kind of { turni saske }, and the "communist party of = China" as a { turni bende } and the "cummunist Down to the countr= yside movement in China" as a { turni zukte }. I see no contradictions= here requiring "interpreting history." In this case:=A0

China's { turni bende }, who call themselves communist (insert cmevl= a for "communist party" here), adopted a { turni zukti = } purported as commu= nist (insert cmevla for "Down to the countryside movement" here),= and justified it as aligning with { turni saske }=A0communistic political theory (in= sert cmevla for "Marxism/Leninism" here).

There, look! No historical interpretation necessary!

.i ta'o

On Wed, Mar 2, 20= 11 at 09:17, A. PIEKARSKI=A0<totus@rogers.com>=A0wrote:
For example, the most often-used lujvo=A0for communism has= been {guntrusi'o} based on the idea (vaguely) of having=A0communes rul= ed by workers (and peasants).

As a si= de note, I don't think Communism was ever defined as communes ruled by = workers/peasants. I think it's defined as a classless society where wor= kers control the means of production.

--
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