From lojban-beginners+bncCJbznvHdFRD6t8DtBBoE6R9uFA@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 21 04:59:06 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QCsXF-0000OY-Ck; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:59:06 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf1802865fxm.16 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=+iSVxyBhEFLLN+BVYlUeQY6zIKFkTt6zVUBIdD1bD8E=; b=Le5kFW7nq6MeT/ZAm7aLv0lAJxmay67OXIPQkNHsITe3Za8KWjsxQb6xThF0gkvoZB mPgBwDeaSSwDaAeiS9AuBB8Gps2JvFt2Nq1pe2BLHO4F1Lh5bnigudFiw3W0M8+Mbo1v e0Z4WjZhCYeDuDv9DqsZVfeVCHofa1U9cKC7Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=kzAzYwWgvMMqlGrxoNtdinTCiocVN2ZU2pyVovRuKZqroaUQjebG6z5eJWO9mr5Au5 KJxeNOEyKqy+gyUsGzAtGMtV1Rhw4hCaNE1Qyx6p6lFksOeUrDmHsamMa4NHi01JuvrW 8yp+JyvBXOQEWqkSN4NwomH2GOZYSy5DAtaLE= Received: by 10.223.121.83 with SMTP id g19mr793096far.48.1303387130070; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.138.67 with SMTP id z3ls1028823bkt.0.gmail; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.80.25 with SMTP id r25mr557195bkk.11.1303387128623; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.80.25 with SMTP id r25mr557194bkk.11.1303387128586; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f50.google.com (mail-fx0-f50.google.com [209.85.161.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t11si330991bkf.6.2011.04.21.04.58.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.50; Received: by fxm16 with SMTP id 16so1236011fxm.37 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.29.199 with SMTP id r7mr3223528fac.75.1303387128121; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.93.201 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:58:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7e5bdd6d-4bb8-415e-b50f-6a0d3e5454b4@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:58:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal? To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517478698c6ca1804a16c768e --001517478698c6ca1804a16c768e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 1) When is any language fully defined? Not even Lojban is fully defined. Being fully defined is not a well defined concept. This was discussed here several months back. 2) Many (all?) languages lack vocabulary for concepts in other cultures. Lacking words doesn't mean that a language (Klingon, in particular) can't be used to talk about those concepts. stevo On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:34 AM, .arpis. wrote: > Well, yes, but I was under the impression that Klingon wasn't a fully > defined language anyway; i.e. that it has no vocabulary for many everyday > objects, let alone linguistic concepts. > > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:02 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 5:10 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> What? That's just plain backwards. Is there a single other language in >>> which the canon definition is in a different language? >>> >>> >> Klingon. >> >> stevo >> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:28 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>> >>>> The canonical definitions are and always have been the English >>>> definitions. To check whether a Lojban definition is right, it's checked >>>> against the English. >>>> >>>> stevo >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ideally, /every/ Lojban word should be defined in Lojban. And >>>>> whenever a word /is/, that most certainly /is/ the canonical definition. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:48 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> what could be more canonical for the definition of a word than the >>>>>> lojbanic definition in jbovlaste? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Thomas Jack wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> > According to how this CAhA is actually defined, {ro datka ka'e >>>>>>> > flulimna} means {lo nu ro datka cu flulimna cu cumki}, which I'm >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> > sure would be true if there already is an actuality where some >>>>>>> ducks >>>>>>> > can't swim. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ah, do you take the Lojban<->Lojban definition ({fi'o se cumki}) at >>>>>>> jbovlaste to be canonical? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately I don't think this is a safe strategy in general, >>>>>>> whether or not xorxes is right about {ka'e}. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi >>>>> patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >>> do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --001517478698c6ca1804a16c768e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1) When is any language fully defined? Not even Lojban is fully define= d. Being fully defined is not a well defined concept. This was discussed he= re several months back.
2) Many (all?) languages lack vocabulary for co= ncepts in other cultures. Lacking words doesn't mean that a language (K= lingon, in particular) can't be used to talk about those concepts.
=A0
stevo

=A0
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:34 AM, .arpis. <rpglover64+= jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, yes, but I was under the i= mpression that Klingon wasn't a fully defined language anyway; i.e. tha= t it has no vocabulary for many everyday objects, let alone linguistic conc= epts.=20


On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:02 AM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:

=A0
Klingon.
=A0
stevo

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:28 AM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
The canonical definitions are and always have been the English definit= ions. To check whether a Lojban definition is right, it's checked again= st the English.
=A0
stevo

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Jonathan Jones <= eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Ideally, /every/ Lojban word should be defined in Lojban. And whenever= a word /is/, that most certainly /is/ the canonical definition.=20


On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:48 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
what could be more canonical for= the definition of a word than the lojbanic definition in jbovlaste?=20


On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Thomas Jack <thomasjack@gmail.com> wrote:
> According to how this CAhA is actually defined, {ro datka ka'= e
> flulimna} means {lo nu ro datka cu flulimna cu cumki}, which I= 9;m not
> sure would be true if there already is an actuality where s= ome ducks
> can't swim.

Ah, do you take the Lojban<->Lojban= definition ({fi'o se cumki}) at
jbovlaste to be canonical?

U= nfortunately I don't think this is a safe strategy in general,
whether or not xorxes is right about {ka'e}.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the = Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group,= send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
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To post to this group, = send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



-- mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe = lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot S= ide! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send emai= l to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, = send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, = send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send emai= l to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

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