From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCZu8LtBBoEFPMONQ@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 21 14:12:10 2011 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QD1AR-000375-Ga; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:12:09 -0700 Received: by pxi19 with SMTP id 19sf55507pxi.16 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=sLy53iJaPRBBLNmA3Ts0dPMXlP0BZOINggclQaM+SIg=; b=Hd1ZJPp2CvsSLEbyswCjEacnc9uVbbwy4sq+OfTFjy3XVJbJWflOY1LtMkcDoE8D70 secJfXNMNw1cBPqFLa0hcdGbb+PpTuhCNwGWaCxd59eb/E7d9spw/yzFxzKaVjpdSPhR /uIj/F/d+cqgjJpg82RJLStWL7HjIaho5UWZk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=HIhyPC9eFC/CGUp1g4yXEDNwwQM1ukdjExTPZghPDByZXiSqEMJtlSDdJMnSZoh1md GzVyjrk3KyUCnIhG5oP/QVLnhVCJEARMegVQDRK2xWYW5gGakwvyU9i9ahlpeq3K0lz0 tbrC9syxe0G5fHiGgT7KmmVjRjkmwRyFKRFlI= Received: by 10.68.41.7 with SMTP id b7mr66536pbl.60.1303420313964; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.1.5 with SMTP id 5ls4946933pbi.1.gmail; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.56.104 with SMTP id z8mr58137pbp.81.1303420313393; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.56.104 with SMTP id z8mr58136pbp.81.1303420313372; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f51.google.com (mail-bw0-f51.google.com [209.85.214.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h9si968909pbc.5.2011.04.21.14.11.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.51; Received: by mail-bw0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 10so146413bwz.38 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.64.208 with SMTP id xj16mr352557bkb.60.1303420312271; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.191.80 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.191.80 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:11:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110421123557.GA71258@alice.local> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:11:52 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] vlastezba: First beta version released! From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5430dfab4bc7b04a17430d5 --bcaec5430dfab4bc7b04a17430d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 All Lojban words beginning with a vowel are supposed to have "." prepended, however, they are not /required/ in text as long as the word boundaries are clearly defined. It is assumed that in such cases the reader knows that the pause normally indicated by "." is implicitly there, so in practice, many jbopre don't write it, either because of aesthetics, laziness, or possibly other reasons. For example, {coi djeims mi e do klama lo vecnu} is the same as {coi.djeims. mi .e do klama lo vecnu}. Personally, I feel that omitting /any/ "." is a bad practice that is potentially confusing, especially to newbies, so I endeavor not to do so. to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi mu'o mi'e.aionys. On Apr 21, 2011 2:42 PM, "Johan Pretorius" wrote: Hi Alan I thought I would have a quick look before going to bed... and it seems that the troublesome word forms you mention are mostly (99%) cmavo that don't start with a consonant. When writing vlastezba, I tried to adhere as strictly as possible to the word forms specified in the CLL, in section 4.2: In there, all cmavo that start with a vowel should have a dot pre-pended. So the forms, as I understand them, are as follows, where any two adjacent vowels may or may not have a ' inserted between them: .V .y. CV .VV CVV Cy CVVV (experimental use only) The only dot I could find in cmavo.txt was in "na.a", which seems like a mistake to me. Anyway, I took cmavo.txt, prepended dots to all lines starting with a vowel, ran it again - this time vlastezba choked on "ybu". I remember now that I hadn't defined y as either a consonant or a vowel, because the CLL was clear that it is NOT a vowel, but it wasn't at all clear that it was a consonant. Indeed, if "ybu" is a valid cmavo, that would seem to imply that "y" is a vowel, yet I clearly recall reading a list of vowels that excluded "y", with the explanation that it isn't really a vowel. So I removed the "ybu" line from the file, and this time it parsed okay (see attached cmavo_dots.stdout). Do you mind running the attached cmavo_dots.txt through jbogenturfa'i to see if we get fewer than 80 discrepancies this time (I would do it myself, but I don't have a copy of jbogenturfa'i or, for that matter, a copy of Linux) So I have three questions: 1) Is "y" a vowel or a consonant? 2) Are dots before vowel-only cmavo required or not? 3) If the dots are required, am I being reasonable to expect them to be present? -Johan On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:35 PM, .alyn.post. wrote: > > vlastezba... -- Johan Pretorius Cell: 0829268327 pretoriusjf@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --bcaec5430dfab4bc7b04a17430d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

All Lojban words beginning with a vowel are supposed to have ".&quo= t; prepended, however, they are not /required/ in text as long as the word = boundaries are clearly defined.

It is assumed that in such cases the reader knows that the pause normall= y indicated by "." is implicitly there, so in practice, many jbop= re don't write it, either because of aesthetics, laziness, or possibly = other reasons.

For example, {coi djeims mi e do klama lo vecnu} is the same as {coi.dje= ims. mi .e do klama lo vecnu}.

Personally, I feel that omitting /any/
"." is a bad practice that is potentially confusing, especially t= o newbies, so I endeavor not to do so.

to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi

mu'o mi'e.aionys.

On Apr 21, 2011 2:42 PM, "Johan Pretorius= " <pretoriusjf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Alan

I thought I would have a quick look bef= ore going to bed... and it seems that=A0 the troublesome word forms you men= tion are mostly (99%) cmavo that don't start with a consonant.

When writing vlastezba, I tried to adhere as strictly as possible to th= e word forms specified in the CLL, in section 4.2:=A0 In there, all cmavo t= hat start with a vowel should have a dot pre-pended.=A0 So the forms, as I = understand them, are as follows, where any two adjacent vowels may or may n= ot have a ' inserted between them:
.V
.y.
CV
.VV
CVV
Cy
CVVV (experimental use only)

= The only dot I could find in cmavo.txt was in "na.a", which seems= like a mistake to me.=A0 Anyway, I took cmavo.txt, prepended dots to all l= ines starting with a vowel, ran it again - this time vlastezba choked on &q= uot;ybu".=A0 I remember now that I hadn't defined y as either a co= nsonant or a vowel, because the CLL was clear that it is NOT a vowel, but i= t wasn't at all clear that it was a consonant.=A0 Indeed, if "ybu&= quot; is a valid cmavo, that would seem to imply that "y" is a vo= wel, yet I clearly recall reading a list of vowels that excluded "y&qu= ot;, with the explanation that it isn't really a vowel.=A0

So I removed the "ybu" line from the file, and this time it p= arsed okay (see attached cmavo_dots.stdout).=A0 Do you mind running the att= ached cmavo_dots.txt through jbogenturfa'i to see if=A0 we get fewer th= an 80 discrepancies this time (I would do it myself, but I don't have a= copy of jbogenturfa'i or, for that matter, a copy of Linux)

So I have three questions:
1) Is "y" a vowel or a consonan= t?
2) Are dots before vowel-only cmavo required or not?
3) If the dot= s are required, am I being reasonable to expect them to be present?

-Johan



On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:35 P= M, .alyn.post. <alyn.p= ost@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> vlastezba...=

--
Johan Pretorius
Cell: 0829268327


pretoriusjf@gmail.com

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