From lojban-beginners+bncCNzDnoiEDxDYxcLtBBoEVrEZTg@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 21 14:34:34 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QD1W7-0002YW-HD; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:34 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf90125fxm.16 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=lY0WpNN881ly3nF56/aTCbwxLIEbNYV36IhtKcfMawE=; b=U/eJ4T5SEf1ZvJQJxDoccqqPziqiJziSW3PLzr3bkXat1wTVK3itGgkYk0HgZWjGpL FJe5CMF7cVDQOONLIy8SZTDwp6aPwPx4cHTlP8gsqQE5SUyeQ5XqsTIlOTmevXhm2VDB Myq4EUACqcswua7WIw54CvTklQs6mxLJzbo0A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=AQyToIeR8tT0R5UXdgcPPFrQO+ioMKCWXXrAh/ByNR4OgAHcMZ6DjjdFfcwalnIHAo 7awyDWi+4q7TVWqrj5HkBjJHDJIt2tP16ZdDVRuefKvLtbZwnLxWnlBqBHaptw7ct0tt 4j7GIB70iFRHVFrC1aw8OWs/kdZwNeH9JPov8= Received: by 10.223.75.19 with SMTP id w19mr150127faj.16.1303421656424; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.49.212 with SMTP id w20ls1170199bkf.2.gmail; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.46.99 with SMTP id i35mr29917bkf.9.1303421655204; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.46.99 with SMTP id i35mr29916bkf.9.1303421655180; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f43.google.com (mail-fx0-f43.google.com [209.85.161.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id st2si402725bkb.0.2011.04.21.14.34.14 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pretoriusjf@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.43; Received: by fxm3 with SMTP id 3so160108fxm.16 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.99.153 with SMTP id u25mr412414fan.112.1303421653759; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.87.1 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:34:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110421123557.GA71258@alice.local> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:34:13 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] vlastezba: First beta version released! From: Johan Pretorius To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: pretoriusjf@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pretoriusjf@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=pretoriusjf@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174beb46aa36de04a1748082 --0015174beb46aa36de04a1748082 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm.... okay, clearly a more thorough reading of the CLL is required... I kinda just jumped in at the section I thought I needed. :-) Given this, I'll have to go over my parsing logic again, it is incorrect as it stands - I assumed the dot is an integral part of the word form. Thanks for all your help, guys! On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > All Lojban words beginning with a vowel are supposed to have "." prepende= d, > however, they are not /required/ in text as long as the word boundaries a= re > clearly defined. > > It is assumed that in such cases the reader knows that the pause normally > indicated by "." is implicitly there, so in practice, many jbopre don't > write it, either because of aesthetics, laziness, or possibly other reaso= ns. > > For example, {coi djeims mi e do klama lo vecnu} is the same as > {coi.djeims. mi .e do klama lo vecnu}. > > Personally, I feel that omitting /any/ > "." is a bad practice that is potentially confusing, especially to newbie= s, > so I endeavor not to do so. > > to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi > > mu'o mi'e.aionys. > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:01 PM, .alyn.post. < alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > Here are the definitions of consonants and vowels from the PEG file: > > > consonant <- voiced > / unvoiced > / syllabic > > syllabic <- l / m / n / r > > voiced <- b / d / g / j / v / z > unvoiced <- c / f / k / p / s / t / x > > vowel <- a / e / i / o / u > > You'll have to ask another question. :-) > > ybu is valid, it being the y letteral in selma'o BY (I believe it has > also been two words, Y+BU, in the past though I could be wrong about > that. For your purposes either definition is probably ok.) > > Will you quote the phrase you're referring to regarding pauses? I > see this one: > > The cmavo =93.u'e=94 begins with a vowel, and like all words > beginning with a vowel, requires a pause (represented by =93.=94) > before it. > > I understand "represented" to be different than "required." In > particular, these lines are all the same: > > .a'e.i'o > a'e.i'o > a'e i'o > .a'e i'o > > In that '.' and ' ' are the same. In section 3.3 there is this: > > Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a > mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language; > because these rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be > inferred from otherwise correct text. Periods are included only as > an aid to the reader. > > A period also may be found apparently embedded in a word. When > this occurs, such a written string is not one word but two, > written together to indicate that the writer intends a unitary > meaning for the compound. It is not really necessary to use a > space between words if a period appears. > > Given my understanding of the above, I believe your requiring a > period to represent this pause to be in error. > > I will rerun my baseline and reply back with it. > > -Alan > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0015174beb46aa36de04a1748082 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm.... okay, clearly a more thorough reading of the CLL is required... I = kinda just jumped in at the section I thought I needed. :-)

Given th= is, I'll have to go over my parsing logic again, it is incorrect as it = stands - I assumed the dot is an integral part of the word form.

Thanks for all your help, guys!



On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Jonathan Jones <<= a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:=

All Lojban words beginning with a vowel = are supposed to have "." prepended, however, they are not /requir= ed/ in text as long as the word boundaries are clearly defined.

It is assumed that in such cases the reader knows that the pause normall= y indicated by "." is implicitly there, so in practice, many jbop= re don't write it, either because of aesthetics, laziness, or possibly = other reasons.

For example, {coi djeims mi e do klama lo vecnu} is the same as {coi.dje= ims. mi .e do klama lo vecnu}.

Personally, I feel that omitting /any/
"." is a bad practice that is potentially confusing, especially t= o newbies, so I endeavor not to do so.

to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi

mu'o mi'e.aionys.


On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:01 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikum= azvati.org> wrote:
Here are the definitions of consonants and vowels from the PEG file:

=A0consonant <- voiced
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 / unvoiced
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 / syllabic

=A0syllabic <- l / m / n / r

=A0voiced <- b / d / g / j / v / z
=A0unvoiced <- c / f / k / p / s / t / x

=A0vowel <- a / e / i / o / u

You'll have to ask another question. =A0:-)

ybu is valid, it being the y letteral in selma'o BY (I believe it has also been two words, Y+BU, in the past though I could be wrong about
that. =A0For your purposes either definition is probably ok.)

Will you quote the phrase you're referring to regarding pauses? =A0I see this one:

=A0The cmavo =93.u'e=94 begins with a vowel, and like all words
=A0beginning with a vowel, requires a pause (represented by =93.=94)
=A0before it.

I understand "represented" to be different than "required.&q= uot; =A0In
particular, these lines are all the same:

=A0.a'e.i'o
=A0a'e.i'o
=A0a'e i'o
=A0.a'e i'o

In that '.' and ' ' are the same. =A0In section 3.3 there i= s this:

=A0Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a
=A0mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language;
=A0because these rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be
=A0inferred from otherwise correct text. Periods are included only as
=A0an aid to the reader.

=A0A period also may be found apparently embedded in a word. When
=A0this occurs, such a written string is not one word but two,
=A0written together to indicate that the writer intends a unitary
=A0meaning for the compound. It is not really necessary to use a
=A0space between words if a period appears.

Given my understanding of the above, I believe your requiring a
period to represent this pause to be in error.

I will rerun my baseline and reply back with it.

-Alan

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