From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhDNqcztBBoErwGCAg@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 23 11:05:19 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QDhCi-0008Re-HQ; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:18 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf2089345fxm.16 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=+SUj7vw/dJ97arHgiNKpn/GNRxHQl69OQiAmP+RZ0sg=; b=32wNEFOc2T10mGssXtaRMX/F8NKROexv80eCCNmhFnyjWHzF51/s/xwlwqzC5am0V4 ODgCe4YnGcIGXEBHsMB5pGt6h3Zgh6o9SXOBFzklULSiemp12E2MmDqOw6I+PIahyTd5 kn/bdvYpYsGrIcLaUy1lM/CGaiMA8v4+aWrUc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=hBJlLM3THor4OblE471DNp4/7J1ukL2rhUir6TS+m5IXAdjfZ4N+n1Y1szNrHS5IxP ogY8kyKoMPxec6rJZC2RpXc7/09q9I0ftgK30ZAfj2KveYbCnXM7iB9vxmkYm+OpsdK+ pfQoAy7lW/Ce7fBNDUj1QvN0WOIWVI5ZPnCY0= Received: by 10.223.62.208 with SMTP id y16mr426605fah.30.1303581901283; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.51.195 with SMTP id e3ls131380fag.1.gmail; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.87.194 with SMTP id x2mr173439fal.4.1303581900441; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.87.194 with SMTP id x2mr173438fal.4.1303581900395; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f45.google.com (mail-bw0-f45.google.com [209.85.214.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r28si436069fam.10.2011.04.23.11.05.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.45; Received: by bwz16 with SMTP id 16so1102438bwz.4 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.20.66 with SMTP id e2mr1949485bkb.141.1303581900021; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.191.80 with HTTP; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:04:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7e5bdd6d-4bb8-415e-b50f-6a0d3e5454b4@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 12:04:59 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555450e161f3804a199d05c --00032555450e161f3804a199d05c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, here's hers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage I don't know if these are the same for every language- I assume so, since that's the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in Lojban. I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them are easy to define without circularity. 2011/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict > wrote: > > > > Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wierzbicka's > > Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of > 'words' > > that can't be defined in terms of simpler words. > >> > > Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about circularity. > > It's easy to fix this "problem" for any dictionary as follows: > > (1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as an entry and > classify it as "primitive". > (2) Take any word that appears in its own definition and classify it > as "primitive". > (3) Pick any remaining entry, classify it as "well-defined" and > classify all still unclassified words in its definition as > "primitive". > (4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries. > > You end up with a pile of words classified as "primitive" and another > pile classified as "well-defined". You can try all possible picking > orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for > the dictionary, since different picking orders will result in > different sets of primitives. > > It would be interesting to see how many primitives result from this > process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of > "primitives" compares with Wierzbicka's. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --00032555450e161f3804a199d05c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, here's hers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalangua= ge

I don't know if these are the same for every language- I = assume so, since that's the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in = Lojban.

I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them a= re easy to define without circularity.

20= 11/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 1= 0:16 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gm= ail.com> wrote:
>
> Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wierzbick= a's
> Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of &= #39;words'
> that can't be defined in terms of simpler words.
>>
> Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about= circularity.

It's easy to fix this "problem" for any dictionary as f= ollows:

(1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as an entry and
classify it as "primitive".
(2) Take any word that appears in its own definition and classify it
as "primitive".
(3) Pick any remaining entry, classify it as "well-defined" and classify all still unclassified words in its definition as
"primitive".
(4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries.

You end up with a pile of words classified as "primitive" and ano= ther
pile classified as "well-defined". You can try all possible picki= ng
orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for
the dictionary, since different picking orders will result in
different sets of primitives.

It would be interesting to see how many primitives result from this
process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of
"primitives" compares with Wierzbicka's.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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