From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCBtdHtBBoE5nuRHQ@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 24 10:15:01 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QE2tY-0005de-83; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:15:01 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf2655468fxm.16 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=HYqKKsgV47Ug0kK75Z1O0+vdOywVJ84mSugpCzf/6To=; b=cBls+IUlnpOzNSswMoXSYowzdx4yvsIZXbeAUF3/RpMsa32wHBpJGZDJXjfMe4Wtp3 87SkQ67fuhk9ZveTn0OGr2KqjLm70custtDNqv0QH87WxaWOsvZge1bWGwpgZg44t/WN 7vm8uP8p07KwdZU7H3xzYI/ouVjXl/zmLIITE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=l6YRLjC37G8JGoikbSKA5KFgSIPfMvXYXbDuS9NtjH0Bm76gNq0SldVoTIHw9KS1k0 js/dJisZoKAuaiPRK0aLSkQJ5+Dtjs9K2PojdaQtB3TWn+ZdglfxJubQ2yd4Dkf7BARC 3xA1VUWRYU408wXIS5xXEGhP4MVcQQtGvGz3w= Received: by 10.223.70.138 with SMTP id d10mr519711faj.47.1303665281704; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.51.195 with SMTP id e3ls237882fag.1.gmail; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.97.154 with SMTP id l26mr137300fan.27.1303665280516; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.97.154 with SMTP id l26mr137299fan.27.1303665280490; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f53.google.com (mail-bw0-f53.google.com [209.85.214.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q4si541802fan.1.2011.04.24.10.14.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.53; Received: by bwg12 with SMTP id 12so1548615bwg.26 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.20.66 with SMTP id e2mr2717621bkb.141.1303665280105; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.191.80 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:14:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7e5bdd6d-4bb8-415e-b50f-6a0d3e5454b4@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 11:14:39 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555450eed3dba04a1ad3957 --00032555450eed3dba04a1ad3957 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 7:22 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > > > On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : > >> Well, here's hers: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage >> >> I don't know if these are the same for every language- I assume so, sinc= e >> that's the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in Lojban. >> >> I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them are easy t= o >> define without circularity. >> >> Really? Which ones? How would you define them? > Well, I and YOU, for a start. Lojban defines those as "the speaker" and "th= e listener", respectively. 2011/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >>> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wierzbicka's >>> > Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of >>> 'words' >>> > that can't be defined in terms of simpler words. >>> >> >>> > Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about circularity. >>> >>> It's easy to fix this "problem" for any dictionary as follows: >>> >>> (1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as an entry and >>> classify it as "primitive". >>> (2) Take any word that appears in its own definition and classify it >>> as "primitive". >>> (3) Pick any remaining entry, classify it as "well-defined" and >>> classify all still unclassified words in its definition as >>> "primitive". >>> (4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries. >>> >>> You end up with a pile of words classified as "primitive" and another >>> pile classified as "well-defined". You can try all possible picking >>> orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for >>> the dictionary, since different picking orders will result in >>> different sets of primitives. >>> >>> It would be interesting to see how many primitives result from this >>> process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of >>> "primitives" compares with Wierzbicka's. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >> > This would indeed be an interesting experiment. > > stevo > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --00032555450eed3dba04a1ad3957 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 7:22 AM, MorphemeAddict = <lytlesw@gmail.co= m> wrote:


On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:04 P= M, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, here's hers: = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage

I don't know if these are the same for every language- I assume so,= since that's the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in Lojban.
I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them = are easy to define without circularity.=20

Really? Which ones? How would you define them?
=A0
Well, I and YOU, for a start. Lojban defines those as &q= uot;the speaker" and "the listener", respectively.

2011/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
&= gt;
> Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wi= erzbicka's
> Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of &= #39;words'
> that can't be defined in terms of simpler words.=
>>
> Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about circularity.
It's easy to fix this "problem" for any dictionary as= follows:

(1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as = an entry and
classify it as "primitive".
(2) Take any word that appears in = its own definition and classify it
as "primitive".
(3) Pick= any remaining entry, classify it as "well-defined" and
classi= fy all still unclassified words in its definition as
"primitive".
(4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries.=

You end up with a pile of words classified as "primitive"= and another
pile classified as "well-defined". You can try al= l possible picking
orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for
th= e dictionary, since different picking orders will result in
different se= ts of primitives.

It would be interesting to see how many primitives= result from this
process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of
"pr= imitives" compares with Wierzbicka's.

mu'o mi'e xor= xes
=A0
This would indeed be an interesting experiment.
=A0
stevo

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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