From lojban-beginners+bncCJbznvHdFRC3peDtBBoEyB2few@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 05:57:43 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF4JG-0005On-BT; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:43 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf2857566wwb.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=TAy/ukBaLaoGzOyuyFrvrFTH7MYChbG2vDI49LtiEkc=; b=zBuhvOOVLIa3kbMDeufe+DweV/+nMW3OYbojoHaf3Dukqadi5hOCx/02zER0hE5j0t LDzKLwHkbO34+jejFdwSFNUDCem0CaAivOJabGz2ZiGEMy5I5Q99IK98b/eAIVVn36bv mNlsu8/tJoAkl/BK7L20LI/6Ux5h2P8uqOvEY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=JyZpdA3oOHTQ4hbSERV0eoOCDtVUgVFmuAEovZgCZy16ODVhe6sEG/HFTPzX5XbR+g bLbolIrEcMO86NHvpreoqNTMJD3wO0No4jI58X2vuE1EpUuSpMKi7REH8RzAr+p2ctn4 eomPmbvGcYY6+zwF/C6k8HaV6HoUB7hQ0iF70= Received: by 10.216.143.95 with SMTP id k73mr658903wej.10.1303909047801; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.3.104 with SMTP id 80ls83286eeg.7.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.9.4 with SMTP id 4mr201896ees.11.1303909046351; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.9.4 with SMTP id 4mr201895ees.11.1303909046324; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f47.google.com (mail-fx0-f47.google.com [209.85.161.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l15si265330eei.7.2011.04.27.05.57.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.47; Received: by mail-fx0-f47.google.com with SMTP id 19so1332464fxm.20 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.24.213 with SMTP id w21mr2319732fab.113.1303909046093; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.93.201 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:57:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7e5bdd6d-4bb8-415e-b50f-6a0d3e5454b4@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:57:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal? To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174786dc83093504a1e5fbc6 --0015174786dc83093504a1e5fbc6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I" is (obviously) not the same as "speaker": 'You are the speaker" doesn't mean "You are I". Also, "I am not the speaker" doesn't mean "I am not I". Same for "YOU" and "listener". stevo On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 7:22 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote= : > >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jonathan Jones wrot= e: >> >>> Well, here's hers: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage >>> >>> I don't know if these are the same for every language- I assume so, sin= ce >>> that's the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in Lojban. >>> >>> I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them are easy = to >>> define without circularity. >>> >>> Really? Which ones? How would you define them? >> > > Well, I and YOU, for a start. Lojban defines those as "the speaker" and > "the listener", respectively. > > 2011/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wierzbicka'= s >>>> > Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of >>>> 'words' >>>> > that can't be defined in terms of simpler words. >>>> >> >>>> > Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about circularity. >>>> >>>> It's easy to fix this "problem" for any dictionary as follows: >>>> >>>> (1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as an entry and >>>> classify it as "primitive". >>>> (2) Take any word that appears in its own definition and classify it >>>> as "primitive". >>>> (3) Pick any remaining entry, classify it as "well-defined" and >>>> classify all still unclassified words in its definition as >>>> "primitive". >>>> (4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries. >>>> >>>> You end up with a pile of words classified as "primitive" and another >>>> pile classified as "well-defined". You can try all possible picking >>>> orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for >>>> the dictionary, since different picking orders will result in >>>> different sets of primitives. >>>> >>>> It would be interesting to see how many primitives result from this >>>> process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of >>>> "primitives" compares with Wierzbicka's. >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>> >>> >> This would indeed be an interesting experiment. >> >> stevo >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0015174786dc83093504a1e5fbc6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"I" is (obviously) not the same as "speaker": '= ;You are the speaker" doesn't mean "You are I". Also, &q= uot;I am not the speaker" doesn't mean "I am not I".
=A0
Same for "YOU" and "listener".
=A0
stevo

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Jonathan Jones = <eyeonus@gmail.co= m> wrote:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 7:22 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw= @gmail.com> wrote:


On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jonathan Jones <= eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, here's hers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage

I don't know if these are the same for every language- I assume so,= since that's the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in Lojban.
I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them = are easy to define without circularity.=20

Really? Which ones? How would you define them?
=A0
Well, I and YOU, for a start. Lojban defines those as "the= speaker" and "the listener", respectively.

2011/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
&= gt;
> Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wi= erzbicka's
> Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of &= #39;words'
> that can't be defined in terms of simpler words.=
>>
> Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about circularity.
It's easy to fix this "problem" for any dictionary as= follows:

(1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as = an entry and
classify it as "primitive".
(2) Take any word that appears in = its own definition and classify it
as "primitive".
(3) Pick= any remaining entry, classify it as "well-defined" and
classi= fy all still unclassified words in its definition as
"primitive".
(4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries.=

You end up with a pile of words classified as "primitive"= and another
pile classified as "well-defined". You can try al= l possible picking
orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for
th= e dictionary, since different picking orders will result in
different se= ts of primitives.

It would be interesting to see how many primitives= result from this
process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of
"pr= imitives" compares with Wierzbicka's.

mu'o mi'e xor= xes
=A0
This would indeed be an interesting experiment.
=A0
stevo

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send emai= l to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .aiony= s.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, = send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--0015174786dc83093504a1e5fbc6--