From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhD3reDtBBoEU5vEzg@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 06:15:49 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF4am-00068N-VT; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:49 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf3720438qwh.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=r3BBl8794+vS8K4tc55uyg4e+5IyJk7H2AwKSXU762M=; b=z5NGMzokrBtFRPz4Ju6/BjcOrH+uJ9ghRuTVMiFhCdfwAglKzX7OK3HtW3WUfnTGUR a0wr03sdeP/rdqyFYvS/lE23JyNdViBv69JEJOp2IMoCndWRdDteuvyBR7S/MQG5p5ww wy5WtzG2O/pJXOCeRnLNNZ8ilaSaFAEqLotAQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=3gO9af3RLLdEUn49fsHB8gbdqUbGVmXnN+RlIRC8syBVPmkFdco6OPwg1Ioj7rLMbt x+cY2I++7rfL9MjqfPj/34pzs+sqT8pPtULbkpd+v6YiREpOQpWRXmeMlmHr1Bjlt60p 02d0Nc4oYUIUmNung14LQrL2kRQqJtQwKQuNA= Received: by 10.229.44.27 with SMTP id y27mr258966qce.25.1303910135069; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.205.76 with SMTP id fp12ls260444qcb.0.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.7.20 with SMTP id b20mr164618qcb.22.1303910133865; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.7.20 with SMTP id b20mr164617qcb.22.1303910133805; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f46.google.com (mail-qw0-f46.google.com [209.85.216.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n4si179021qcg.7.2011.04.27.06.15.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.46; Received: by qwk3 with SMTP id 3so738204qwk.19 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.130.3 with SMTP id q3mr1732306qcs.44.1303910133387; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.188.133 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7e5bdd6d-4bb8-415e-b50f-6a0d3e5454b4@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 09:15:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal? From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Highjacking this a bit.... When the 2003 edition of the OSPD3 (official Scrabble Player's Dictionary, 3rd Edition) came out, someone (here denoted RB) asked me to do a quick check of what words appear in definitions therein that were not in fact legal Scrabble words (i.e. appear as entries). Here was my results using OSPD2 (the only computer readable source I had at the time), with his annotations of the corrections that were made subsequent (a # means good in Scrabble outside of North America/Israel/Thailand, bu not within, where OSPD rules (for home and school use, but not tournament and club)) 1) obvious misspellings: CELLO "muscial*" (Not in OSPD3 -- RB) CIVICISM "govermment*" CLAMMING "particple*" DUSTIEST "superative*" HEADSAIL "fo*" HEREDITY "chracteristics*" MENACE "theaten*" MURDER "premediated*" (I like it :-) REDBIRD "plummage*" SCREECHY "screaching*" (Not in OSPD2 -- RB) THEIST "belives*" (Not in OSPD3 -- RB) WORKBAG "instuments*" 2) words part of multiword phrases only ("multiword*" -- RB :-) ABVOLT, KILOVOLT, MEGAVOLT, VOLT, VOLTAGE "electromotive#" BREN "submachine*" CANCHA, CESTA, FRONTON "jai*","alai*" GILBERT "magnetomotive#" KILOBASE, MUTON, REPLICON "nucleic*" NONCOM, SERGEANT "noncommissioned*" RIBOSOME "ribonucleic*" SOUVLAKI "shish*" VASOTOMY "deferens*" 3) words that basically should be in there, but are not... AGEDLY "oldly*" ART "esthetically*" ("aesthetically" is acceptable -- RB) CITREOUS, CITRON "lemonlike*" DRAGON "serpentlike#" EFFLUVIA "byproducts*" ("by-products" in MW10 -- RB) EYESTALK "stalklike*" GENOISE "spongecake*" ("sponge cake" in MW10 -- RB) HODAD "nonsurfer*" HORN "bonelike*" JACKDAW "crowlike*" LANCE "spearlike*" LATENTLY "dormantly*" LEGEND "unverified#" LEMMING "mouselike*" MACE "clublike*" MUMBLE, MURMUR, MUTTER "unclearly#" QUAGGA "zebralike*" SAC "pouchlike*" SCOOP "spoonlike*" VIROID "viruslike*" Now back to your regularly schedulaed lojban. --gejyspa On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 8:57 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > "I" is (obviously) not the same as "speaker": 'You are the speaker" doesn= 't > mean "You are I". Also, "I am not the speaker" doesn't mean "I am not I". > > Same for "YOU" and "listener". > > stevo > > On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : >> >> On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 7:22 AM, MorphemeAddict wrot= e: >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jonathan Jones >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, here's hers: >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage >>>> >>>> I don't know if these are the same for every language- I assume so, >>>> since that's the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in Lojban. >>>> >>>> I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them are easy >>>> to define without circularity. >>> >>> Really? Which ones? How would you define them? >> >> >> Well, I and YOU, for a start. Lojban defines those as "the speaker" and >> "the listener", respectively. >> >>>> 2011/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wierzbicka= 's >>>>> > Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) o= f >>>>> > 'words' >>>>> > that can't be defined in terms of simpler words. >>>>> >> >>>>> > Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about circularity. >>>>> >>>>> It's easy to fix this "problem" for any dictionary as follows: >>>>> >>>>> (1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as an entry an= d >>>>> classify it as "primitive". >>>>> (2) Take any word that appears in its own definition and classify it >>>>> as "primitive". >>>>> (3) Pick any remaining entry, classify it as "well-defined" and >>>>> classify all still unclassified words in its definition as >>>>> "primitive". >>>>> (4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries. >>>>> >>>>> You end up with a pile of words classified as "primitive" and another >>>>> pile classified as "well-defined". You can try all possible picking >>>>> orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for >>>>> the dictionary, since different picking orders will result in >>>>> different sets of primitives. >>>>> >>>>> It would be interesting to see how many primitives result from this >>>>> process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of >>>>> "primitives" compares with Wierzbicka's. >>>>> >>>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >>> >>> This would indeed be an interesting experiment. >>> >>> stevo >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.