From lojban-beginners+bncCMuAoImuBxDfjebtBBoE6N6F7g@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 28 08:25:34 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QFT5t-0003vh-Ur; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:34 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf3265957fxm.16 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=y4pbf6k74z4UtbGvK+JYaPQYjh0fXxAvi3k8NpPiUVY=; b=gplZ8QuU9oM/R1epMCFZbit2WyBpfCfbNKCs6adVuuAwEtCVrL8i+2gbR8D1NYPuPW NYR7+O6Q/dGQZMKX+pdd625qPPGT2YTYlwCRYBqO6IlsoaeCdR39OUs0ZTmU1AJr44CM HoUqqiquc53c+JjNeKAu/SbemA+/Xr2o86T4c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=5BYnLg8i3cdZygwqEImp1fexP/u/BynBgQetY903zuLyAfXEhbZEU1B02YhPsBw0WQ jJeQpIlgivygmZi03ZDVH3F3rMClIhkN0WIMdBW0buyI4iO0auAlXv9bFCJGBkjh3+xy zauyWBt6y+YoLustDAYbJdDGMU19/QAby3oXc= Received: by 10.223.5.16 with SMTP id 16mr826564fat.25.1304004319201; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.25.14 with SMTP id x14ls503431fab.3.gmail; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.13.10 with SMTP id z10mr85211faz.7.1304004318386; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.13.10 with SMTP id z10mr85209faz.7.1304004318337; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f48.google.com (mail-bw0-f48.google.com [209.85.214.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b4si325244fab.2.2011.04.28.08.25.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jtorndorff@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.48; Received: by bwz8 with SMTP id 8so3841083bwz.21 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.24.13 with SMTP id rc13mr1884356bkb.75.1304004316904; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.117.203 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1ef02bdb-cb9a-4474-a0d8-e2fd2f84e2ab@w24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <20110428150603.GA30212@alice.local> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:25:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Possession with "le le ..." From: Jameson Orndorff To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jtorndorff@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jtorndorff@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jtorndorff@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3036402b183c7604a1fc2a74 --20cf3036402b183c7604a1fc2a74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The purpose of {cu} is to mark the next construct as the selbri of a main-level bridi. This word will terminate everything it needs to to get yo= u to a main-level selbri. The 'construct' you are working for is a terminator - {ku}. {ku} terminates LE, LA, and a few other things, and will let you terminate the 'inner' sumti. lo lo ninmu klama ku tamne mi'e .kribacr. mu'o On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > I think the question though is, if {cu} means "separate selbri from > preceding sumti" then, why can't you do {le le ninmu cu klama} where this= is > interpreted as: (something that goes in x1 of: ( something that goes in x= 1 > of: (ninmu ) > comes). > > Ok, I don't know how to describe that better. Basically, if {cu} says "o= k, > we're done with this sumti, now do a selbri" but that itself is happening > inside a LE, then why can't the following selbri be converted by the oute= r > LE? > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:06 AM, .alyn.post. < > alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 07:49:21AM -0700, Ben Foppa wrote: >> > Lojban for Beginners says "...consider how you would say le tamne pe >> > le ninmu klama 'the woman traveller's cousin' with this kind of >> > nesting. You could flip it around as le le ninmu klama tamne =97 but >> > then, how can you tell where the 'possessor' ends and where the >> > 'possessee' begins?" >> > >> > I wonder why a construct like "le le ninmu klama cu tamne" wouldn't >> > work, to separate the argument to the first "le" (which is "ninmu >> > klama"), from the argument to the second "le" (which is "tamne"). Is >> > the purpose of "cu" not simply to separate two selbri when they are >> > consecutive arguments, or when one is the argument to another? >> > >> >> You can use {ku} to terminate the inner {le}: >> >> le le ninmu klama ku tamne >> >> -alyn >> -- >> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --20cf3036402b183c7604a1fc2a74 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The purpose of {cu} is to mark the next construct as the selbri of a main-l= evel bridi. This word will terminate everything it needs to to get you to a= main-level selbri.

The 'construct' you are working for is a= terminator - {ku}. {ku} terminates LE, LA, and a few other things, and wil= l let you terminate the 'inner' sumti.

lo lo ninmu klama ku tamne

mi'e .kribacr. mu'o

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmai= l.com> wrote:
I think the question though is, if {cu} mea= ns "separate=A0selbri from preceding sumti" then, why can't y= ou do {le le ninmu cu klama} where this is interpreted as: (something that = goes in x1 of: ( something that goes in x1 of: (ninmu <cu so break out o= f this sumti and start talking about a selbri>) comes).

Ok, I don't know how to describe that better. =A0Basical= ly, if {cu} says "ok, we're done with this sumti, now do a selbri&= quot; but that itself is happening inside a LE, then why can't the foll= owing selbri be converted by the outer LE?


On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:06 AM, .alyn.post= . <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 07:49:21AM -0700, Ben Foppa wrote:
> Lojban for Beginners says "...consider how you would say le tamne= pe
> le ninmu klama 'the woman traveller's cousin' with this ki= nd of
> nesting. You could flip it around as le le ninmu klama tamne =97 but > then, how can you tell where the 'possessor' ends and where th= e
> 'possessee' begins?"
>
> I wonder why a construct like "le le ninmu klama cu tamne" w= ouldn't
> work, to separate the argument to the first "le" (which is &= quot;ninmu
> klama"), from the argument to the second "le" (which is= "tamne"). Is
> the purpose of "cu" not simply to separate two selbri when t= hey are
> consecutive arguments, or when one is the argument to another?
>

You can use {ku} to terminate the inner {le}:

=A0le le ninmu klama ku tamne

-alyn
--
.i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du

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