From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBC08ubtBBoEyn_nTQ@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 28 12:00:21 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QFWRh-0005dh-OQ; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:21 -0700 Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36sf7972620qyk.16 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=xQF1a9NyQuGyduWUCBI4XY8vaq+qEP5qvAzvJqecD7M=; b=BrfxsSUe9+cWvNx6k9fHopoqqiRLphAreqyME7tsdxvsZZiaRAFhOwDkJV9QaQpjo1 nWWHlfWaobcvO5FoAayqKkjZmAXBqnxZMhXiwgcGpqpKFSgiefg/e75c5LcWal80Qjbg EJLOTMMi98Y5oaGoEkNexQsrN3QYKbs8ioWho= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=6vMHHUeaRF16QhIky/q27PIip572YKAbGPO375vTXd4Fft/eDjSOVDUP+Rz1eJ8bLr hVKrvxPqDjg8/hLVmzvvzXxM5oy6uRtxR1+R2xhSAyeMmE0mhQUaH7fna3VzZkazbBHA u1R+FCA2Wbv1W3PkTF35MHlWOwTAs4H2tPdSs= Received: by 10.224.214.193 with SMTP id hb1mr391730qab.33.1304017204229; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.229.132 with SMTP id ji4ls728930qcb.1.gmail; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.29.77 with SMTP id p13mr320574qcc.23.1304017203450; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.29.77 with SMTP id p13mr320573qcc.23.1304017203418; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f176.google.com ([209.85.220.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o12si488662qcu.2.2011.04.28.12.00.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.176; Received: by mail-vx0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 37so2671667vxa.7 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.68.205 with SMTP id y13mr555443vdt.76.1304017203211; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.156.233 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:59:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <202d5f08-9abf-4875-8a15-182967c6b280@k5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> References: <1ef02bdb-cb9a-4474-a0d8-e2fd2f84e2ab@w24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <20110428150603.GA30212@alice.local> <202d5f08-9abf-4875-8a15-182967c6b280@k5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:59:43 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Possession with "le le ..." To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307f32302dac5804a1ff2a8a --20cf307f32302dac5804a1ff2a8a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh wait a minute. Now that I think of it. If you read {cu} as "start terminating things until you get to a place where a selbri is acceptable then stop" then the following is acceptable: lo lo gerku cu denci. We reach the {cu} and say "ok, start terminating things until we get to a plac= e where a selbri makes sense" -> lo lo gerku ku denci. This operation makes sense in every other place where {cu} is known and loved. {lo nu lo gerku cu batci cu cinri}, the second {cu} stands in for {keiku} {lu lo plise cu xamgu cu se cusku}, the second {cu} stands in for {li'u} {lo gerku poi lo mripre cu se batci cu blabi}, the second {cu} stands in fo= r {ku'o} {lo lo gerku cu denci}, why can't the {cu} here stand in place of {ku} yielding {lo lo gerku ku denci} On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Ben Foppa wrote= : > Excellent, I understand now - thank you! > > On Apr 28, 11:25 am, Jameson Orndorff wrote: > > The purpose of {cu} is to mark the next construct as the selbri of a > > main-level bridi. This word will terminate everything it needs to to ge= t > you > > to a main-level selbri. > > > > The 'construct' you are working for is a terminator - {ku}. {ku} > terminates > > LE, LA, and a few other things, and will let you terminate the 'inner' > > sumti. > > > > lo lo ninmu klama ku tamne > > > > mi'e .kribacr. mu'o > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > > I think the question though is, if {cu} means "separate selbri from > > > preceding sumti" then, why can't you do {le le ninmu cu klama} where > this is > > > interpreted as: (something that goes in x1 of: ( something that goes = in > x1 > > > of: (ninmu selbri>) > > > comes). > > > > > Ok, I don't know how to describe that better. Basically, if {cu} say= s > "ok, > > > we're done with this sumti, now do a selbri" but that itself is > happening > > > inside a LE, then why can't the following selbri be converted by the > outer > > > LE? > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:06 AM, .alyn.post. < > > > alyn.p...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 07:49:21AM -0700, Ben Foppa wrote: > > >> > Lojban for Beginners says "...consider how you would say le tamne = pe > > >> > le ninmu klama 'the woman traveller's cousin' with this kind of > > >> > nesting. You could flip it around as le le ninmu klama tamne =97 b= ut > > >> > then, how can you tell where the 'possessor' ends and where the > > >> > 'possessee' begins?" > > > > >> > I wonder why a construct like "le le ninmu klama cu tamne" wouldn'= t > > >> > work, to separate the argument to the first "le" (which is "ninmu > > >> > klama"), from the argument to the second "le" (which is "tamne"). = Is > > >> > the purpose of "cu" not simply to separate two selbri when they ar= e > > >> > consecutive arguments, or when one is the argument to another? > > > > >> You can use {ku} to terminate the inner {le}: > > > > >> le le ninmu klama ku tamne > > > > >> -alyn > > >> -- > > >> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du > > > > >> -- > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > > >> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > >> For more options, visit this group at > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m > . > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --20cf307f32302dac5804a1ff2a8a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh wait a minute. =A0Now that I think of it. =A0If you read {cu} as "s= tart terminating things until you get to a place where a selbri is acceptab= le then stop" then the following is acceptable: =A0lo lo gerku cu denc= i. =A0We reach the {cu} and say "ok, start terminating things until we= get to a place where a selbri makes sense" -> lo lo gerku ku denci= . =A0

This operation makes sense in every other place where {cu} i= s known and loved.

{lo nu lo gerku cu batci cu cin= ri}, the second {cu} stands in for {keiku}
{lu lo plise cu xamgu = cu se cusku}, the second {cu} stands in for {li'u}
{lo gerku poi lo mripre cu se batci cu blabi}, the second {cu} stands = in for {ku'o}
{lo lo gerku cu denci}, why can't the {cu} = here stand in place of {ku} yielding {lo lo gerku ku denci}

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Ben Foppa <eatingstaples@= gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent, I understand now - thank you!

On Apr 28, 11:25=A0am, Jameson Orndorff <jtorndo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The purpose of {cu} is to mark the next construct as the selbri of a > main-level bridi. This word will terminate everything it needs to to g= et you
> to a main-level selbri.
>
> The 'construct' you are working for is a terminator - {ku}. {k= u} terminates
> LE, LA, and a few other things, and will let you terminate the 'in= ner'
> sumti.
>
> lo lo ninmu klama ku tamne
>
> mi'e .kribacr. mu'o
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Luke Bergen = <lukeaber...@gmail.com> = wrote:
> > I think the question though is, if {cu} means "separate selb= ri from
> > preceding sumti" then, why can't you do {le le ninmu cu = klama} where this is
> > interpreted as: (something that goes in x1 of: ( something that g= oes in x1
> > of: (ninmu <cu so break out of this sumti and start talking ab= out a selbri>)
> > comes).
>
> > Ok, I don't know how to describe that better. =A0Basically, i= f {cu} says "ok,
> > we're done with this sumti, now do a selbri" but that it= self is happening
> > inside a LE, then why can't the following selbri be converted= by the outer
> > LE?
>
> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:06 AM, .alyn.post. <
> > alyn.p...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 07:49:21AM -0700, Ben Foppa wrote: > >> > Lojban for Beginners says "...consider how you woul= d say le tamne pe
> >> > le ninmu klama 'the woman traveller's cousin'= ; with this kind of
> >> > nesting. You could flip it around as le le ninmu klama t= amne =97 but
> >> > then, how can you tell where the 'possessor' end= s and where the
> >> > 'possessee' begins?"
>
> >> > I wonder why a construct like "le le ninmu klama cu= tamne" wouldn't
> >> > work, to separate the argument to the first "le&quo= t; (which is "ninmu
> >> > klama"), from the argument to the second "le&q= uot; (which is "tamne"). Is
> >> > the purpose of "cu" not simply to separate two= selbri when they are
> >> > consecutive arguments, or when one is the argument to an= other?
>
> >> You can use {ku} to terminate the inner {le}:
>
> >> =A0le le ninmu klama ku tamne
>
> >> -alyn
> >> --
> >> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups
> >> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>
> > =A0--
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
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