From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDw8_DtBBoEdjhytQ@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 30 09:34:06 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QGD7J-0005mX-Va; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:34:05 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf14891201qwh.16 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=xoC37vcHSU248770xa2DLc1N9SOPoI4ZX8kwR4E4UFI=; b=fTCZ3EOEArZy4WeFUHjPIwmxdqwNZy1RYblCThMPeR83kKSIQlfN0szG3a863caYsT WVR38UngJqK2Mop0Z4vIi45XMqhh7m6qJcHoSO/8Zc5V3QsA13a2loawca/l7PEkdBOG tDB31eaOW0AZyQuu5ElvvAj5bMKf0gzeJetJo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=tTyRguiXI1IaGuTmcUuzys+fsh5hgYWMt8s7GyqxrIPMZwuS7kfA6G2tHREwZ+q6zY prxTfWneroQt3QAAhxl1anmOQ/+Em7k+nKIAMfEb8Nxa+CcNfG/q/zhv1b7gfhBmCQdx Uiv6QZGHXy4ppjVovjlFp+58TsncMI40VJyrk= Received: by 10.224.201.4 with SMTP id ey4mr673265qab.39.1304181232187; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.176.70 with SMTP id bd6ls632565qab.5.gmail; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.189.67 with SMTP id dd3mr427126qab.19.1304181231680; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.189.67 with SMTP id dd3mr427125qab.19.1304181231668; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f182.google.com ([209.85.220.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o12si901993qcu.2.2011.04.30.09.33.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.182; Received: by vxc34 with SMTP id 34so4740654vxc.41 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.175.99 with SMTP id bz3mr1994572vdc.117.1304181230242; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.182.67 with HTTP; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 13:33:50 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 7:17 AM, tijlan wrote: > > Yes, xorlo has no default quantifier. But then does "lo ci gerku" > really mean "*all three* of the dogs that we are talking about"? "lo ci gerku" can be used to refer to anything that fits the x1 of gerku and whose number is three: lo ci gerku = zo'e noi ke'a gerku gi'e klani li ci > According to xorlo, {lo} isn't supposed to have any default > quantifier, including "at least one". "How to use xorlo" translates it > as "something(s) or other to do with broda". "How to use xorlo" says some odd things, so don't take it too seriously. I don't see how "lo gerku" could be used to refer to a dog's collar for example, which would fit the "something or other to do with dogs". It seems to me that "lo gerku" can only be used, and everybody only uses it, to refer to dogs. The outer quantifier changes nothing about what "lo ci gerku" refers to, it only says how many of the referents satisfy some selbri: no lo ci gerku cu blabi pa lo ci gerku cu blabi re lo ci gerku cu blabi ro lo ci gerku cu blabi su'o lo ci gerku cu blabi me'i lo ci gerku cu blabi In all of those cases, we are still referring to three dogs. The outer quantifier says how many of them are white, but the reference is still to three dogs. Now someone will ask what "lo ci gerku cu blabi" means without an outer quantifier. My answer is that in this case it is *probably* saying that "ro lo ci gerku cu blabi", but not because of some rule of grammar or logic but because of how things work in the world with respect to dogs being white. We usually say of three dogs that they are white only if each of them is white, but this is not a rule that applies to all things and all predicates. We don't require each dog to be white all over either, we may allow for their tongues not being white and we still say that the dogs are white, we may allow for some non-white spots on their skin as long as they are not too noticeable and still say that the dogs are white, and so on. This has to do about how we determine whether something is white, and more specifically how dogs are white. There is no PA that fits this formula for all broda and all brode in all contexts: lo broda cu brode => PA lo broda cu brode mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.