From lojban-beginners+bncCNf8pM-bDBDcobvtBBoEbg89Zg@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 20 05:26:19 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QCWU3-0003cB-Nx; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:26:19 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf956868qwh.16 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:26:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=B1thTGprm3iO7+oO1Fyy3ec618n8WTrkCY8pNJLIyME=; b=0C/U01pmZPie9OYc4uuDDWdoLoEk2KRe8YdsP2lJYJfsSQAIITwH+NWlDE206pvmy+ +HTU9uSkjfZxXVu78w9i4fWXZmfgBodMt6pVIFO0z3G7Bt8u05mVdPzh3J/lPwm0MNTX Gk0P7z3dUviTepdQFX4gCvoX7CKHgi4FZPmBM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=yf5oSXPuwgF9XTL8SDz4nrv4qDwS4Muku4zkduaQr0pBt74P/1hjmBH18vkyTFEtHu yfT5gA49Y4TN+GsIGvXqm/T5xpKWzkqvVE7s8LCVbSIMFzBcG3vQeyYPIxn4qbNTEtmD xSkCv2CHASGvaR19L5/I4lUmaYyJ5nDv7TeEc= Received: by 10.224.49.149 with SMTP id v21mr746345qaf.26.1303302364956; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:26:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.219.73 with SMTP id ht9ls228859qab.7.gmail; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.214.129 with SMTP id ha1mr409865qab.6.1303302363450; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.21.154 with SMTP id j26msqab; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.10.10 with SMTP id n10mr517014qcn.1.1303295624333; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.10.10 with SMTP id n10mr517013qcn.1.1303295624318; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f50.google.com (mail-qw0-f50.google.com [209.85.216.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o12si160173qcu.2.2011.04.20.03.33.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.50; Received: by mail-qw0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 5so360825qwe.37 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:33:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.81.85 with SMTP id w21mr5252318qck.128.1303295623351; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.182.209 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 03:33:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7e5bdd6d-4bb8-415e-b50f-6a0d3e5454b4@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:33:43 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal? From: tijlan To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 20 April 2011 07:48, Luke Bergen wrote: > So as to what {broda ka'e lo nu brode} means... I don't know. =A0An event= that > happens "in the future" is "in the future" TO some other event. =A0The se= lbri > is an "innate=A0capability" in reference to what? =A0Maybe the entity tha= t is > {ka'e}. =A0{citka lo muno sovda ka'e la .luk.} -> {citka lo muno sovda} i= s > {ka'e}. =A0{ka'e} to what? =A0To {la .luk.}. =A0i.e. {la .luk. kakne lo n= u citka > lo muno sovda}. =A0I dunno... that's how it would make the most sense to = me. {ka'e} is semantically close more to {cumki} than to {kakne}: http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ka%27e {lo plise ka'e farlu} means "It's possible that apples fall" (a possibility whose realization doesn't hinge on volition) rather than "Apples are capable of falling" (a capability whose realization hinges on volition). {ka'e} works by virtue of {cumki}'s place structure like {pu} does of {purc= i}'s, http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/pu therefore the following analogy is the case: da broda pu de =3D da broda fi'o se purci de =3D lo nu da broda cu purci de da broda ka'e de =3D da broda fi'o se cumki de =3D lo nu da broda cu cumki = de {ka'e de} means cumki2, the condition under which cumki1 -- (lo nu) da broda -- is possible. {ka'e la .luk.} implies that {la .luk.} is a named condition. (I personally don't subscribe to the view that a person sumti cannot fill a place defined in terms of abstraction, event, condition, etc., so whether {la .luk.} refers to a person or not wouldn't be a problem for me; but you can at will make a person an entity separate from an event with {tu'a}: {ka'e tu'a la .luk.}, "under a condition involving Luke".) {ca'a} is defined as {fi'o jai fatci}: http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ca%27a Because of the disarranging nature of {jai}, the sentential role of any sumti after {ca'a} will be inherently vaguer than with {ka'e}. But you still can use {ca'a} with a sumti like other such TAG couplings. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.