From lojban-beginners+bncCI7tjcWhDhD30YruBBoE_Dzu_A@googlegroups.com Thu May 05 06:41:28 2011 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QHynx-0002aY-IY; Thu, 05 May 2011 06:41:27 -0700 Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1sf1765358pwi.16 for ; Thu, 05 May 2011 06:41:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZbOlyINrh35cJSFAitBGqqU4DesoBFcM4PJS+1Kw5Hk=; b=Z/HO/Tjmm8Q8pM4aMOLQjdKwxV3YU/j6wHZZxHEMYnTB0XvlZzSQ6mSX0Mzr1qBI8t DSa6aQ1yBsZ7bUxyRLKPrB5vQS1KxhiGu8TfLjn2HaLK4r8I4x13J06YG6t87XRYdnwZ dyPis2KZDwdI9K9gUS/IawsMN6NnQrgbIc1zo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=AfHJRNVmALqC6E7c9ZohPDd7gDKkiK/BT/7EJG56GMzp6YA2vrE8FoCfBQokmEtWoO HXntIGSwLJUSOR30iFndjzV8m5G1jG01I7Y/oqd0BeqdJBvF9CxfQ+rGnTPY6kvoKxkG B+4X29yKehO3HMNFfFKpo76qu06HgCDoe7L4M= Received: by 10.68.68.113 with SMTP id v17mr134451pbt.45.1304602871934; Thu, 05 May 2011 06:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.36.67 with SMTP id o3ls3622386pbj.0.gmail; Thu, 05 May 2011 06:41:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.36.161 with SMTP id r1mr48919pbj.19.1304602871141; Thu, 05 May 2011 06:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by x38g2000pri.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Thu, 5 May 2011 06:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 06:41:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 211.28.52.50 References: User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/534.24 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/11.0.696.60 Safari/534.24,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <3ddd6de1-671f-41fa-90a5-102799cc26f7@x38g2000pri.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku From: ranoritc To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: ranorith@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ionai la xorlo na'e ciste fi lo selklani po zo lo i ni'i la'edi'u lu lo gerku cu blabi li'u selsmuni lu lo no gerku cu blabi li'u xu i si'a selsmuni lu lo piso'a gerku cu blabi li'u xu i si'a selsmuni lu lo mo'a gerku cu blabi li'u zo'o i selbebna .i Ranorith Yuck, I really hate how xorlo specifies that lo "has no default quantifiers". Does that mean if I say "lo gerku cu blabi" this is a fine generalisation of "lo no gerku cu blabi"? What about "lo piso'a gerku cu blabi"? Or perhaps "lo mo'a gerku cu blabi"? So silly. mu'omi'e ranoritc On May 1, 2:33=A0am, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 7:17 AM, tijlan wrote: > > > Yes, xorlo has no default quantifier. But then does "lo ci gerku" > > really mean "*all three* of the dogs that we are talking about"? > > "lo ci gerku" can be used to refer to anything that fits the x1 of > gerku and whose number is three: > > lo ci gerku =3D zo'e noi ke'a gerku gi'e klani li ci > > > According to xorlo, {lo} isn't supposed to have any default > > quantifier, including "at least one". "How to use xorlo" translates it > > as "something(s) or other to do with broda". > > "How to use xorlo" says some odd things, so don't take it too > seriously. I don't see how "lo gerku" could be used to refer to a > dog's collar for example, which would fit the "something or other to > do with dogs". It seems to me that "lo gerku" can only be used, and > everybody only uses it, to refer to dogs. > > The outer quantifier changes nothing about what "lo ci gerku" refers > to, it only says how many of the referents satisfy some selbri: > > no lo ci gerku cu blabi > pa lo ci gerku cu blabi > re lo ci gerku cu blabi > ro lo ci gerku cu blabi > su'o lo ci gerku cu blabi > me'i lo ci gerku cu blabi > > In all of those cases, we are still referring to three dogs. The outer > quantifier says how many of them are white, but the reference is still > to three dogs. > > Now someone will ask what "lo ci gerku cu blabi" means without an > outer quantifier. My answer is that in this case it is *probably* > saying that "ro lo ci gerku cu blabi", but not because of some rule of > grammar or logic but because of how things work in the world with > respect to dogs being white. We usually say of three dogs that they > are white only if each of them is white, but this is not a rule that > applies to all things and all predicates. We don't require each dog to > be white all over either, we may allow for their tongues not being > white and we still say that the dogs are white, we may allow for some > non-white spots on their skin as long as they are not too noticeable > and still say that the dogs are white, and so on. This has to do about > how we determine whether something is white, and more specifically how > dogs are white. > > There is no PA that fits this formula for all broda and all brode in > all contexts: > > =A0 =A0lo broda cu brode =3D> PA lo broda cu brode > > mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.