From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhCHiKHuBBoE1uxZbg@googlegroups.com Mon May 09 12:44:22 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QJWNN-0004xL-Qo; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:21 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf22905626qwh.16 for ; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=swQ4aZu5C3GgNAwIV7sBhbfN2nO9pNzKo2xHBKqBbfA=; b=v+eJ61dAbFTyYBdf22EonJvH4UD0Uy82Xn46ec67vaBnKeACtFnoiVn76b+vimVkqh gQ4kwptXL9jfgsr7yKyD+y9HI4GlCxUbVzYfSbczNEav76o5O2nhYYBzvTEQ7nqlS12G brG8flS8BqjcBNJkmcJ5fgQD0M5CPyPfRCxg8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Q+tHXm3T0OJkbZiuAiBw0/AI1Wj/f0IoFmD8Gd7MJZ7YHbmpOd0EbDFbH8c3mZrWvt 79+NeHTqjdQHiMcUkiDSWJOM+aiT3BAFSjyUZyQg5tX+gyw+WTUDRdF23YzwAF0SzEFm azhsRCJ6vNY2CMV69s++JOmtauYlEvxOYw+3s= Received: by 10.229.126.219 with SMTP id d27mr1059377qcs.13.1304970247643; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.173.157 with SMTP id p29ls1185187qcz.1.gmail; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.27.81 with SMTP id h17mr602423qcc.9.1304970245888; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.27.81 with SMTP id h17mr602422qcc.9.1304970245863; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com (mail-qw0-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n4si1522047qcg.15.2011.05.09.12.44.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.41; Received: by mail-qw0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 26so4480208qwa.0 for ; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.212.194 with SMTP id gt2mr6521170qab.68.1304970245646; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.188.133 with HTTP; Mon, 9 May 2011 12:44:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <025af042-f0be-48ff-b7de-79434433d587@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <201105062251.18981.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 15:44:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300fab97ef2aca04a2dd0f7c --20cf300fab97ef2aca04a2dd0f7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > > What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji lo su'o so > ficysi'u > > namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei".) It has been proved tha= t > they > > must have at least nine different factors, that they are not divisible = by > > 105, etc.; but no one has found a single one, and some mathematicians > suspect > > they don't exist. > > If you are saying that "ro lo no broda cu brode" could be interpreted > as "if there were any broda, they would brode, but in fact there > aren't any broda", then I guess you could interpret it that way. From > a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring expression > and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixing > two different contexts to make sense of it. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self contradictory/nonsense. Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blabi I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthfully say "l= o no gerku cu xekri". But in all those cases I can say "ro gerku [poi zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi". It's jsut a question of whether I am specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) or not (ro). --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --20cf300fab97ef2aca04a2dd0f7c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>=
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>> What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji lo su&= #39;o so ficysi'u
> namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei"= ;.) It has been proved that they
> must have at least nine different = factors, that they are not divisible by
> 105, etc.; but no one has f= ound a single one, and some mathematicians suspect
> they don't exist.

If you are saying that "ro lo = no broda cu brode" could be interpreted
as "if there were any = broda, they would brode, but in fact there
aren't any broda", t= hen I guess you could interpret it that way. From
a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring express= ion
and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixing=
two different contexts to make sense of it.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=A0 I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self co= ntradictory/nonsense.=A0
=A0 Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blab= i
=A0 I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi
=A0=A0I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi
=A0 I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi=A0
=A0=A0Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthful= ly say "lo no gerku cu xekri".=A0 But in all those cases I can sa= y "ro gerku [poi zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi".=A0 It's = jsut a question of whether I am specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) = or not (ro).
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0
=A0

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