From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhDXjKHuBBoE742D6g@googlegroups.com Mon May 09 12:54:13 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QJWWv-0005Aa-Ms; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:54:13 -0700 Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36sf25290922qyk.16 for ; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=UfXjkToq9Rq7nz+dcxb44gYyw2VgTSUMMyfdA1udAzc=; b=bDaxmbQM3vA+F9jHV38GXt9J6y+Pil/6qsh43A8Qj/XfsEMRDLRGdft/5pSsyvRXK8 Dis46g/AfoTBHkDeCHywmZBv8zEYWiBwtphT94PjUQSoup4iqokqK3hBARXmxLe/J4qR DYoa8K6wvUYa1QzpHMA+lAqF+VSgJtlBqca6A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=tx19O0Fl1Xh6ecEPRueRkH96CwwZSvEAHcHv/a2S5gB8o/RaUyaDvAIhBgIqfiw33K zfmMzs1uLk25Bx90mdDcWHDrH/yBQhDm+zJObKwacq+U4DQs6EqeABIZxMc06ig9c5Hs dMMDX33Dec5BcDr4g0GQkd9C6nalvMZs/Nj18= Received: by 10.229.201.28 with SMTP id ey28mr808307qcb.8.1304970839807; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:53:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.208.8 with SMTP id ga8ls1188075qcb.2.gmail; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.67.202 with SMTP id s10mr603780qci.10.1304970839101; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.67.202 with SMTP id s10mr603779qci.10.1304970839046; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f172.google.com (mail-qy0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m42si1521821qcz.9.2011.05.09.12.53.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 09 May 2011 12:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.172; Received: by mail-qy0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 29so1309047qyk.10 for ; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:53:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.62.209 with SMTP id y17mr5207046qch.196.1304970838849; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.188.133 with HTTP; Mon, 9 May 2011 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <025af042-f0be-48ff-b7de-79434433d587@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <201105062251.18981.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 15:53:58 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6546e064abaae04a2dd33fd --0016e6546e064abaae04a2dd33fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, no, it's ALWAYS true. And I didn't say it was necessarily useful, I just said it wsan't nonsense. After all, I use the equivalent English with my kids all the time -- you know, like "I'll give you all the dollars in my pocket if you clean your room....Good job, I now give you the zero dollars that are in my pocket." --gejyspa On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > But what's the purpose. {lo no gerku cu crino cirla .ije lo no gerku cu = se > rebla}. If you can say anything about {lo no gerku} (whether it is true = or > false) then what is the purpose of it? > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >>> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji lo su'o so >>> ficysi'u >>> > namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei".) It has been proved >>> that they >>> > must have at least nine different factors, that they are not divisibl= e >>> by >>> > 105, etc.; but no one has found a single one, and some mathematicians >>> suspect >>> > they don't exist. >>> >>> If you are saying that "ro lo no broda cu brode" could be interpreted >>> as "if there were any broda, they would brode, but in fact there >>> aren't any broda", then I guess you could interpret it that way. From >>> a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring expression >>> and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixing >>> two different contexts to make sense of it. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >> I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self >> contradictory/nonsense. >> Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blabi >> I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi >> I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi >> I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi >> Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthfully say >> "lo no gerku cu xekri". But in all those cases I can say "ro gerku [poi >> zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi". It's jsut a question of whether I am >> specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) or not (ro). >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016e6546e064abaae04a2dd33fd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 No, no, it's ALWAYS true.=A0 And I didn't= say it was necessarily useful, I just said it wsan't nonsense.=A0 Afte= r all, I use the equivalent English with my kids all the time -- you know, = like "I'll give you all the dollars in my pocket if you clean your= room....Good job, I now give you the zero dollars that are in my pocket.&q= uot;
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmai= l.com> wrote:
But what's the purpose. =A0{= lo no gerku cu crino cirla .ije lo no gerku cu se rebla}. =A0If you can say= anything about {lo no gerku} (whether it is true or false) then what is th= e purpose of it?

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Michael Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:


2011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
&g= t;
> What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji l= o su'o so ficysi'u
> namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei"= ;.) It has been proved that they
> must have at least nine different = factors, that they are not divisible by
> 105, etc.; but no one has f= ound a single one, and some mathematicians suspect
> they don't exist.

If you are saying that "ro lo = no broda cu brode" could be interpreted
as "if there were any = broda, they would brode, but in fact there
aren't any broda", t= hen I guess you could interpret it that way. From
a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring express= ion
and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixing=
two different contexts to make sense of it.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=A0 I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self co= ntradictory/nonsense.=A0
=A0 Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blab= i
=A0 I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi
=A0=A0I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi
=A0 I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi=A0
=A0=A0Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthful= ly say "lo no gerku cu xekri".=A0 But in all those cases I can sa= y "ro gerku [poi zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi".=A0 It's = jsut a question of whether I am specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) = or not (ro).
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0
=A0

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