From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBDzjqHuBBoEBOKOWQ@googlegroups.com Mon May 09 12:58:59 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QJWbW-0005pr-0T; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:59 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf9697821wya.16 for ; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=PDGga6WF9TkEgvNqAiuj4GZqviwSc9doetXFrECspRI=; b=AhKeb8q8iIIi07K/05e4+BUJZ2qBF09e0mRkMHYz81nez3DtPuvKkB46XvPQELER3X prDmrmbFY90SGJ8C7fFJminz4jVq1bQWE1ZRQjK+S5bEbUii5lq60h+wl4wEu7FGL8sR TVYv+8hBQoY/wcL90J8s4+qfPExi2fDtcvIzQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=J1WVPoRuwYs7fBvO4uhwsFAWvJXivmgUwRovsvjVOdzN9RtCdOTDUxL4lmbYY5Q71z hXl/0qgWKACF8j3DI0wu0agObvUhIW9rr0rvOyendE6BuofTxqxGGd0Wl0ZUCudH7xTR rPAr8lE8NIkO38E1pTeWlOLUT8Io2NUdyZBJ8= Received: by 10.216.65.136 with SMTP id f8mr2361434wed.14.1304971123441; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.41.227 with SMTP id h75ls412642eeb.3.gmail; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.0.141 with SMTP id 13mr938795eeb.50.1304971122412; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.0.141 with SMTP id 13mr938794eeb.50.1304971122350; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f177.google.com (mail-ey0-f177.google.com [209.85.215.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y9si1702181eeh.1.2011.05.09.12.58.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.177; Received: by eyh6 with SMTP id 6so2226132eyh.22 for ; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.134.79 with SMTP id r55mr3486924eei.18.1304971122107; Mon, 09 May 2011 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.29.10 with HTTP; Mon, 9 May 2011 12:58:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <025af042-f0be-48ff-b7de-79434433d587@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <201105062251.18981.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Luke Bergen Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 15:58:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303b3fd12ce61104a2dd4463 --20cf303b3fd12ce61104a2dd4463 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable haha, gejyspa, you're kind of a jerk ;) I guess it could also be a way of translating stuff from english like "if there WERE 9-tailed-dogs, they would probably like bones" -> {pe'i lo no sozrebge'u cu nelci la'a tu'a lo bongu} On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Michael Turniansky w= rote: > No, no, it's ALWAYS true. And I didn't say it was necessarily useful, = I > just said it wsan't nonsense. After all, I use the equivalent English wi= th > my kids all the time -- you know, like "I'll give you all the dollars in = my > pocket if you clean your room....Good job, I now give you the zero dollar= s > that are in my pocket." > --gejyspa > > > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > >> But what's the purpose. {lo no gerku cu crino cirla .ije lo no gerku cu >> se rebla}. If you can say anything about {lo no gerku} (whether it is t= rue >> or false) then what is the purpose of it? >> >> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Michael Turniansky < >> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>> >>>> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji lo su'o so >>>> ficysi'u >>>> > namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei".) It has been proved >>>> that they >>>> > must have at least nine different factors, that they are not divisib= le >>>> by >>>> > 105, etc.; but no one has found a single one, and some mathematician= s >>>> suspect >>>> > they don't exist. >>>> >>>> If you are saying that "ro lo no broda cu brode" could be interpreted >>>> as "if there were any broda, they would brode, but in fact there >>>> aren't any broda", then I guess you could interpret it that way. From >>>> a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring expression >>>> and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixing >>>> two different contexts to make sense of it. >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>> >>> I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self >>> contradictory/nonsense. >>> Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blabi >>> I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi >>> I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi >>> I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi >>> Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthfully sa= y >>> "lo no gerku cu xekri". But in all those cases I can say "ro gerku [po= i >>> zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi". It's jsut a question of whether I am >>> specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) or not (ro). >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --20cf303b3fd12ce61104a2dd4463 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable haha, gejyspa, you're kind of a jerk ;)

I guess it c= ould also be a way of translating stuff from english like "if there WE= RE 9-tailed-dogs, they would probably like bones" -> {pe'i lo n= o sozrebge'u cu nelci la'a tu'a lo bongu}

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Michael Turn= iansky <mturn= iansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 No, no, it's ALWAYS true.=A0 And I didn't= say it was necessarily useful, I just said it wsan't nonsense.=A0 Afte= r all, I use the equivalent English with my kids all the time -- you know, = like "I'll give you all the dollars in my pocket if you clean your= room....Good job, I now give you the zero dollars that are in my pocket.&q= uot;
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
<= div>


=A0
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
But what's the purpose. =A0{lo no= gerku cu crino cirla .ije lo no gerku cu se rebla}. =A0If you can say anyt= hing about {lo no gerku} (whether it is true or false) then what is the pur= pose of it?

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Michael Turniansky &= lt;mturniansky@g= mail.com> wrote:


2011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
&g= t;
> What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji l= o su'o so ficysi'u
> namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei"= ;.) It has been proved that they
> must have at least nine different = factors, that they are not divisible by
> 105, etc.; but no one has f= ound a single one, and some mathematicians suspect
> they don't exist.

If you are saying that "ro lo = no broda cu brode" could be interpreted
as "if there were any = broda, they would brode, but in fact there
aren't any broda", t= hen I guess you could interpret it that way. From
a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring express= ion
and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixing=
two different contexts to make sense of it.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=A0 I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self co= ntradictory/nonsense.=A0
=A0 Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blab= i
=A0 I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi
=A0=A0I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi
=A0 I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi=A0
=A0=A0Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthful= ly say "lo no gerku cu xekri".=A0 But in all those cases I can sa= y "ro gerku [poi zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi".=A0 It's = jsut a question of whether I am specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) = or not (ro).
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0
=A0

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