From lojban-beginners+bncCJbznvHdFRCAyqHuBBoED7-IsA@googlegroups.com Mon May 09 15:06:40 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QJYZX-00087q-OL; Mon, 09 May 2011 15:06:40 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf6329045fxm.16 for ; Mon, 09 May 2011 15:04:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=NfcyJu7DWPJJYO0X9ZXpuCmKIcuLE10Z1kQkED01l5w=; b=Mcegf2LAc+yzByJ9/mjQT6BjaJUpEcbCo5Fy4jKBdQaFvpMVApk8yQCAgNjtPQMxT6 5gN3euKn2SkrymsMWM8QCx4Tb8lvOAS26xZ0PNPhE6KADvDDy8CrywdS11yWSEccfnuM 0QvyVOQrNUUc34BOR5LTjR0skfG11lYItiP4w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=OJEh8Jz/JcKpVjXz4dGSlpJQkYqvwR6MuYd1oUGDb02EsqsLMQRdvI5mAhIj9JpNEJ Rr3CrnzD91/cYWmigZdSfmz9jeqT+MYmOUBFuGKDyISTaDuUAo9bOr4IRp+z2ucZyiTd UHGr3WjLFULaaqdLFJVuimeNTk7wocs5w/QCE= Received: by 10.223.30.152 with SMTP id u24mr1264513fac.5.1304978688778; Mon, 09 May 2011 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.40.73 with SMTP id j9ls581217bke.2.gmail; Mon, 09 May 2011 15:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.142.195 with SMTP id r3mr565490bku.1.1304978687464; Mon, 09 May 2011 15:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.142.195 with SMTP id r3mr565489bku.1.1304978687424; Mon, 09 May 2011 15:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t11si1180115bkf.6.2011.05.09.15.04.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 09 May 2011 15:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.54; Received: by mail-fx0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 11so5529856fxm.13 for ; Mon, 09 May 2011 15:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.55.78 with SMTP id t14mr513594fag.43.1304978686117; Mon, 09 May 2011 15:04:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.72.1 with HTTP; Mon, 9 May 2011 15:04:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <025af042-f0be-48ff-b7de-79434433d587@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <201105062251.18981.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 18:04:26 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517447b3e0686e804a2df07c1 --001517447b3e0686e804a2df07c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's all trickery and deceit. stevo On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Exactly. That's why I'm saying that it COULD be understood to be similar > to something in english like "big-foot does not exist. But if he does, I > imagine that he goes to sleep sometimes". > > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> Ah, but I teach them valuable life lessons -- like ascertaining >> exactly what "all" involves in a given transaction before embraking on a >> task. And they're all too smart to fall for it any more :-) >> >> Your sentence doesn't assert anything about what would happen if there >> were >0 9-tailed dogs. It makes the claim that there ARE NO 9-tailed do= gs, >> and that they like bones. (but again, you can say anything about them, >> since there are 0 of them, and still be making a true statement). >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : >> >>> haha, gejyspa, you're kind of a jerk ;) >>> >>> I guess it could also be a way of translating stuff from english like "= if >>> there WERE 9-tailed-dogs, they would probably like bones" -> {pe'i lo n= o >>> sozrebge'u cu nelci la'a tu'a lo bongu} >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Michael Turniansky < >>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> No, no, it's ALWAYS true. And I didn't say it was necessarily >>>> useful, I just said it wsan't nonsense. After all, I use the equivale= nt >>>> English with my kids all the time -- you know, like "I'll give you all= the >>>> dollars in my pocket if you clean your room....Good job, I now give yo= u the >>>> zero dollars that are in my pocket." >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen wro= te: >>>> >>>>> But what's the purpose. {lo no gerku cu crino cirla .ije lo no gerku >>>>> cu se rebla}. If you can say anything about {lo no gerku} (whether i= t is >>>>> true or false) then what is the purpose of it? >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Michael Turniansky < >>>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji lo su'o >>>>>>> so ficysi'u >>>>>>> > namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei".) It has been prov= ed >>>>>>> that they >>>>>>> > must have at least nine different factors, that they are not >>>>>>> divisible by >>>>>>> > 105, etc.; but no one has found a single one, and some >>>>>>> mathematicians suspect >>>>>>> > they don't exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you are saying that "ro lo no broda cu brode" could be interpret= ed >>>>>>> as "if there were any broda, they would brode, but in fact there >>>>>>> aren't any broda", then I guess you could interpret it that way. Fr= om >>>>>>> a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring expressio= n >>>>>>> and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixin= g >>>>>>> two different contexts to make sense of it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>>>>> >>>>>> I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self >>>>>> contradictory/nonsense. >>>>>> Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blab= i >>>>>> I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi >>>>>> I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi >>>>>> I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi >>>>>> Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthfully >>>>>> say "lo no gerku cu xekri". But in all those cases I can say "ro ge= rku [poi >>>>>> zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi". It's jsut a question of whether I a= m >>>>>> specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) or not (ro). >>>>>> >>>>>> --gejyspa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m >>>>> . >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= . >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --001517447b3e0686e804a2df07c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's all trickery and deceit.
=A0
stevo

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Exactly. =A0That's why I'= ;m saying that it COULD be understood to be similar to something in english= like "big-foot does not exist. =A0But if he does, I imagine that he g= oes to sleep sometimes".=20


On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Michael Turnians= ky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Ah, but I teach them valuable life lessons -- like ascertaining ex= actly what "all" involves in a given transaction before embraking= on a task.=A0 And they're all too smart to fall for it any more :-)=A0=
=A0
=A0=A0Your sentence doesn't assert anything about what would happe= n if there were >0 9-tailed dogs.=A0 It makes the claim that there ARE N= O 9-tailed dogs, and that they like bones.=A0 (but again, you can say anyth= ing about them, since there are 0 of them, and still be making a true state= ment).
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
haha, gejyspa, you're kind o= f a jerk ;)=20

I guess it could also be a way of translating stuff from english like = "if there WERE 9-tailed-dogs, they would probably like bones" -&g= t; {pe'i lo no sozrebge'u cu nelci la'a tu'a lo bongu}=20


On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Michael Turnians= ky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 No, no, it's ALWAYS true.=A0 And I didn't say it was neces= sarily useful, I just said it wsan't nonsense.=A0 After all, I use the = equivalent English with my kids all the time -- you know, like "I'= ll give you all the dollars in my pocket if you clean your room....Good job= , I now give you the zero dollars that are in my pocket."
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
But what's the purpose. =A0{= lo no gerku cu crino cirla .ije lo no gerku cu se rebla}. =A0If you can say= anything about {lo no gerku} (whether it is true or false) then what is th= e purpose of it?

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Michael Turniansky &= lt;mturniansky@g= mail.com> wrote:


2011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
&g= t;
> What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji l= o su'o so ficysi'u
> namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei"= ;.) It has been proved that they
> must have at least nine different = factors, that they are not divisible by
> 105, etc.; but no one has f= ound a single one, and some mathematicians suspect
> they don't exist.

If you are saying that "ro lo = no broda cu brode" could be interpreted
as "if there were any = broda, they would brode, but in fact there
aren't any broda", t= hen I guess you could interpret it that way. From
a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring express= ion
and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixing=
two different contexts to make sense of it.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=A0 I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self co= ntradictory/nonsense.=A0
=A0 Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blab= i
=A0 I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi
=A0=A0I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi
=A0 I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi=A0
=A0=A0Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthful= ly say "lo no gerku cu xekri".=A0 But in all those cases I can sa= y "ro gerku [poi zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi".=A0 It's = jsut a question of whether I am specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) = or not (ro).
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0
=A0

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