From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBDD75DuBBoEKc4-PQ@googlegroups.com Fri May 06 11:03:01 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QIPMc-0003w1-GM; Fri, 06 May 2011 11:03:00 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf5481087wya.16 for ; Fri, 06 May 2011 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=mBXjYS4C538ZcDErMAILuqVSYQG5B6Wlesy+ZiQSnNY=; b=HfxC4Vn7QNLs1BPeq30DKfu646kE9Xau4zIYJFm6HN5Oy4YA0AiBc6yc/tS7k/yXyg aj4TW+mbLvgcY9vb+KX1zl9rCY2yfbKSHZHm4JQYRnBywug4OT7qRFLHZ2fXIYTg1Tcq FxeHsBZ7QspNr0Mk/Ht0CXS2dLP2A8BnhmQ/Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ZJqRAatAvP8q3ZTMLXKO7H9gi1XCaiJLl8WcaKrvb7XOKOVw8D50kxxWseTQOQLx9J iuzkiI9+TL5Rz1XguIIExbwSsUWrurJTTTrhxE0QB5s10u8JV+nyfJFIb7lIwrFd47Pk rKDHlXL1rWZOt6kqnrqWvLZZmnvGzX4dpcjHg= Received: by 10.216.220.149 with SMTP id o21mr1425495wep.1.1304704963349; Fri, 06 May 2011 11:02:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.41.98 with SMTP id g74ls247390eeb.5.gmail; Fri, 06 May 2011 11:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.15.149 with SMTP id f21mr646153eef.43.1304704961533; Fri, 06 May 2011 11:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.15.149 with SMTP id f21mr646152eef.43.1304704961497; Fri, 06 May 2011 11:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f180.google.com (mail-ey0-f180.google.com [209.85.215.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v8si685696eev.0.2011.05.06.11.02.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 06 May 2011 11:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.180; Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so1515677eyg.39 for ; Fri, 06 May 2011 11:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.11.26 with SMTP id 26mr2030740eew.114.1304704961218; Fri, 06 May 2011 11:02:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.126.147 with HTTP; Fri, 6 May 2011 11:02:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <025af042-f0be-48ff-b7de-79434433d587@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com> References: <3ddd6de1-671f-41fa-90a5-102799cc26f7@x38g2000pri.googlegroups.com> <025af042-f0be-48ff-b7de-79434433d587@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 14:02:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364c7bd5c007e104a29f4bef --0016364c7bd5c007e104a29f4bef Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think maybe the nature of the brivla itself is what adds those context based assumptions. If I hear {lo gerku} I'm going to make some basic assumptions based on the fact that we're talking about {lo gerku}. I'm going to assume that there is a telgandi, a skari, and other things typical of a gerku. I guess likewise I will assume that it's not 40 feet tall, 12-legged, or {no}. I think I get it now xorxes. {lo} has no quantifiers and any assumptions about whether we are talking about many, some, or none of ma= y or maynot be determinable from the se gadri and consequently have NOTHING t= o do with {lo}. Additionally, it may be pointless or purposeless to even think about the quantities. It's probably only the english part of my brai= n that's demanding to know if we're talking about {su'o}, {so'i}l, or {no}. On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:35 AM, ranoritc wrote: > "Is "lo gerku cu blabi" a > fine generalization of "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" because "lo" has no > default color? Is "lo gerku" a fine generalization of "lo fetsi gerku" > because "lo" has no hidden gender? What about "lo fetsi najenai nakni > gerku"?" > > Yes, yes, yes. If I say "the purple dog is white" is true then > necessarily the sentence "the dog is white" is true (for some dog). > Similarly in lojban, if "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" then "lo gerku cu > blabi". seltaa modify tertau but don't change them completely - lo > broda brode cu brode. However, quantifiers can. If "lo no gerku cu > batci mi" this in no way implies "lo gerku cu batci mi". In fact, they > are contradictory. In the three examples I gave above, the first "lo > no gerku cu blabi" was meant to show how a quantifier could contradict > the generalisation, the second to show how a quantifier could be > independent from (not imply or be implied by) the generalisation, and > the third was a bit of a joke, so feel free to ignore that. > > Suffice to say, quantifiers are not seltau, they act differently to > seltau, and that should in my opinion be part of the written law of > lojban, not just "oh but we know from context when someone says 'lo > gerku' they mean 'lo su'o gerku' but maybe they don't" > > On May 6, 1:09 am, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:41 AM, ranoritc wrote: > > > ionai la xorlo na'e ciste fi lo selklani po zo lo i ni'i la'edi'u lu > > > lo gerku cu blabi li'u selsmuni lu lo no gerku cu blabi li'u xu i si'= a > > > selsmuni lu lo piso'a gerku cu blabi li'u xu i si'a selsmuni lu lo > > > mo'a gerku cu blabi li'u zo'o i selbebna .i > > > > > Ranorith > > > > > Yuck, I really hate how xorlo specifies that lo "has no default > > > quantifiers". Does that mean if I say "lo gerku cu blabi" this is a > > > fine generalisation of "lo no gerku cu blabi"? What about "lo piso'a > > > gerku cu blabi"? Or perhaps "lo mo'a gerku cu blabi"? So silly. > > > > Indeed that's silly, but I don' t follow your reasoning. I say that > > "lo" has nothing to do with quantifiers, and you ask whether "lo" can > > have some more or less absurd hidden quantifiers? Just forget about > > any connection between "lo" and quantifiers. Is "lo gerku cu blabi" a > > fine generalization of "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" because "lo" has no > > default color? Is "lo gerku" a fine generalization of "lo fetsi gerku" > > because "lo" has no hidden gender? What about "lo fetsi najenai nakni > > gerku"? Or does "lo" have a default "fetsi ja nakni" gender? "lo" has > > nothing to do with color, it has nothing to do with gender, and it has > > nothing to do with number. That doesn't mean you can assume there are > > hidden crazy colors, genders or numbers when you use "lo". > > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016364c7bd5c007e104a29f4bef Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think maybe the nature of the brivla itself is what adds those context ba= sed assumptions. =A0If I hear {lo gerku} I'm going to make some basic a= ssumptions based on the fact that we're talking about {lo gerku}. =A0I&= #39;m going to assume that there is a telgandi, a skari, and other things t= ypical of a gerku. =A0I guess likewise I will assume that it's not 40 f= eet tall, 12-legged, or {no}.

I think I get it now xorxes. =A0{lo} has no quantifiers and = any assumptions about whether we are talking about many, some, or none of &= lt;these things> may or maynot be determinable from the se gadri and con= sequently have NOTHING to do with {lo}. =A0Additionally, it may be pointles= s or purposeless to even think about the quantities. =A0It's probably o= nly the english part of my brain that's demanding to know if we're = talking about {su'o}, {so'i}l, or {no}.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:35 AM, ranoritc <ranorith@gmail.co= m> wrote:
"Is "lo gerku cu blabi" a
fine generalization of "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" because "lo= " has no
default color? Is "lo gerku" a fine generalization of "lo fe= tsi gerku"
because "lo" has no =A0hidden gender? What about "lo fetsi n= ajenai nakni
gerku"?"

Yes, yes, yes. If I say "the purple dog is white" is true t= hen
necessarily the sentence "the dog is white" is true (for some dog= ).
Similarly in lojban, if "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" then "lo g= erku cu
blabi". seltaa modify tertau but don't change them completely - lo=
broda brode cu brode. However, quantifiers can. If "lo no gerku cu
batci mi" this in no way implies "lo gerku cu batci mi". In = fact, they
are contradictory. In the three examples I gave above, the first "lo no gerku cu blabi" was meant to show how a quantifier could contradict=
the generalisation, the second to show how a quantifier could be
independent from (not imply or be implied by) the generalisation, and
the third was a bit of a joke, so feel free to ignore that.

Suffice to say, quantifiers are not seltau, they act differently to
seltau, and that should in my opinion be part of the written law of
lojban, not just "oh but we know from context when someone says 'l= o
gerku' they mean 'lo su'o gerku' but maybe they don't&q= uot;

On May 6, 1:09=A0am, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllamb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:41 AM, ran= oritc <ranor...@gmail.com> = wrote:
> > ionai la xorlo na'e ciste fi lo selklani po zo lo i ni'i = la'edi'u lu
> > lo gerku cu blabi li'u selsmuni lu lo no gerku cu blabi li= 9;u xu i si'a
> > selsmuni lu lo piso'a gerku cu blabi li'u xu i si'a s= elsmuni lu lo
> > mo'a gerku cu blabi li'u zo'o i selbebna .i
>
> > Ranorith
>
> > Yuck, I really hate how xorlo specifies that lo "has no defa= ult
> > quantifiers". Does that mean if I say "lo gerku cu blab= i" this is a
> > fine generalisation of "lo no gerku cu blabi"? What abo= ut "lo piso'a
> > gerku cu blabi"? Or perhaps "lo mo'a gerku cu blabi= "? So silly.
>
> Indeed that's silly, but I don' t follow your reasoning. I say= that
> "lo" has nothing to do with quantifiers, and you ask whether= "lo" can
> have some more or less absurd hidden quantifiers? Just forget about > any connection between "lo" and quantifiers. Is "lo ger= ku cu blabi" a
> fine generalization of "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" because &qu= ot;lo" has no
> default color? Is "lo gerku" a fine generalization of "= lo fetsi gerku"
> because "lo" has no =A0hidden gender? What about "lo fe= tsi najenai nakni
> gerku"? Or does "lo" have a default "fetsi ja nakn= i" gender? "lo" has
> nothing to do with color, it has nothing to do with gender, and it has=
> nothing to do with number. That doesn't mean you can assume there = are
> hidden crazy colors, genders or numbers when you use "lo". >
> mu'o mi'e xorxes

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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