From lojban-beginners+bncCI7tjcWhDhDupL_uBBoE5yPYUg@googlegroups.com Sun May 15 06:17:46 2011 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QLbCZ-0000x0-2e; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:17:46 -0700 Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1sf4018651pwi.16 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:17:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vI5DFh4PooMvnDXctLzTHgCH860qfcmTvoIAjGpepp8=; b=cFdJBJ59naLKRGbBUxOe7Qt84PqyUkOEXd/77/WotFc/Zk1z+MhItrnB4DJOyxxC9p /CB6dHUi1ngvpjo05C3WaWP00+tRPZ7l+twfbn/T8oDYGrYHvVhXhVHC4M502U2LE/3q jaC0fi7vOMQA5Ggg7ASSiOXb4HrA3Ygu9Tr0A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=NQms6AQ77TVQDdy/UMD9kSY9+9clWkatdQE03kbYlJkMqkUZlhBpx0tXvwnq4dwWVF 14zAPTDP2BsUgC0xnSTqZIIh2FXMDNoV1YjhIg+LAgTfgC+PlHWmvRAfuMp3nhyyS60U kAtwgXPg2jp+fe9jnCCVqlaBlWGNacmzEfeuo= Received: by 10.68.26.163 with SMTP id m3mr236717pbg.20.1305465454244; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.13.233 with SMTP id k9ls5713602pbc.3.gmail; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:17:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.15.104 with SMTP id w8mr234786pbc.26.1305465453153; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by z15g2000prn.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sun, 15 May 2011 06:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 06:17:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 211.28.52.50 References: <025af042-f0be-48ff-b7de-79434433d587@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com> <201105062251.18981.phma@phma.optus.nu> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/534.24 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/11.0.696.65 Safari/534.24,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku From: ranoritc To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: ranorith@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry I've taken so long to reply by the way, I've been a little busy. A question about grammar has degraded to semantics :(. If it "lo no gerku cu blabu" can only be use metaphorically, so be it, so long as it can be used. And if it can't, let's discuss "no lo gerku" instead (which surely is sensible). I guess the question for me comes down to the following: is lo used with default quantifiers implicitly? Or are there examples of brivla where we would assume different quantifiers in certain contexts? Personally, I think no. Everyone was used to the quantifiers of "le" before xorlo, and so now they simply use "lo" in the same way - which is allowed because xorlo makes no demands. The point is though, that currently someone can come along and use it differently - saying "lo gerku cu blabi" when they mean "no lo gerku cu blabi" and be technically correct. Why are we allowing this? Ranorith u'u mi masno lo nu spuda kei mu'i milxe tolcando i uinai pa preti be lo gerna cu xlabi'o pa preti be lo smuske i lu lo no gerku cu blabi li'u goi ko'a po'o to'e satci smuni ja'e no vajni i lo du'u ko'a smuni kei po'o vajni i ko'a smuni inaija ko joi mi casnu sedu'u no lo gerku cu blabi kei to a'o ri smuni to'i i vajni to vajni mi to'i se preti sedu'u zo lo selcusku fi'o kampu smuni fe'u lo steci selskani xu kei i mupli lo drata ka selskani lo'i ro brivla xu i jimpe lo du'u nago'i i ro jbopre selslabu lo selskani po zo le pu la xorlo selfinti isemu'i zo lo mintu pilno i di'u drani ni'i la xorlo cu jai te bilga noda po lo selskani i ta'onai lo nu cusku lu lo gerku cu blabi li'u gi'e smuni lo sedu'u lu no gerku cu blabi li'u drani i mu'i ma cu ca'icru di'u vu'enai i mi'e ranoritc On May 10, 5:58=A0am, Luke Bergen wrote: > haha, gejyspa, you're kind of a jerk ;) > > I guess it could also be a way of translating stuff from english like "if > there WERE 9-tailed-dogs, they would probably like bones" -> {pe'i lo no > sozrebge'u cu nelci la'a tu'a lo bongu} > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > > > > > > > =A0 No, no, it's ALWAYS true. =A0And I didn't say it was necessarily us= eful, I > > just said it wsan't nonsense. =A0After all, I use the equivalent Englis= h with > > my kids all the time -- you know, like "I'll give you all the dollars i= n my > > pocket if you clean your room....Good job, I now give you the zero doll= ars > > that are in my pocket." > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa > > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen wro= te: > > >> But what's the purpose. =A0{lo no gerku cu crino cirla .ije lo no gerk= u cu > >> se rebla}. =A0If you can say anything about {lo no gerku} (whether it = is true > >> or false) then what is the purpose of it? > > >> =A0 On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Michael Turniansky < > >> mturnian...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> =A02011/5/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas > > >>>> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pierre Abbat > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > What about "ro lo no prane ke xirdegmei namcu cu gumpilji lo su'o = so > >>>> ficysi'u > >>>> > namcu"? ("xirdegmei" is opposed to "landegmei".) It has been prove= d > >>>> that they > >>>> > must have at least nine different factors, that they are not divis= ible > >>>> by > >>>> > 105, etc.; but no one has found a single one, and some mathematici= ans > >>>> suspect > >>>> > they don't exist. > > >>>> If you are saying that "ro lo no broda cu brode" could be interprete= d > >>>> as "if there were any broda, they would brode, but in fact there > >>>> aren't any broda", then I guess you could interpret it that way. Fro= m > >>>> a logical point of view "lo no broda" is both a referring expression > >>>> and not referring to anything, so we can only try things like mixing > >>>> two different contexts to make sense of it. > > >>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes > > >>> =A0 I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self > >>> contradictory/nonsense. > >>> =A0 Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu bla= bi > >>> =A0 I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi > >>> =A0 I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi > >>> =A0 I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi > >>> =A0 Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthfull= y say > >>> "lo no gerku cu xekri". =A0But in all those cases I can say "ro gerku= [poi > >>> zvati lo kumfa ku'o] cu blabi". =A0It's jsut a question of whether I = am > >>> specifying their cardinality (ci,re,pa,no) or not (ro). > > >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa > > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups > >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups > >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= . > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > =A0-- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. 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