From lojban-beginners+bncCOO27LuODBC-pY_vBBoEAhVkzA@googlegroups.com Mon May 30 10:24:29 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QR6CV-00051f-4P; Mon, 30 May 2011 10:24:28 -0700 Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36sf6836478qyk.16 for ; Mon, 30 May 2011 10:24:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HaeUuZDazutgUN0JmyYWQEBwWjtBd4Qf9JXMVpB1HPw=; b=uYwi5cdVpfiwEHwVCHgmqA4ZxX2JTW6l+GxCO/0sdnjUi3TP2GmbssZBpR9l83SoBm pf52ASbKeFM/ZV/nILYIXzmzA4Xy61f8TGwyR9QeNIoL8jz41JTi89GdvGNpZV3XhkDY 4zOhnP8e9vHde5BIvLhCRV4iO66EVz350xOr0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:user-agent:x-http-useragent :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=HnPrDAtQmQUB6XpEmpJX6zEE5XPdfLTiqkLWC8N6J7JG7IJGdeg8tIonlA7RczejeL BUqiw4rMKtJJ+NuHULOBQXhsTmU82kE/Gi/BmeDwOehk3yG/C4VV+jX2gB5pNLJztYDN 8y1C8/10VtUIGopLVDJaeWdo57AdtKaWXceb8= Received: by 10.224.217.200 with SMTP id hn8mr1501343qab.0.1306776254332; Mon, 30 May 2011 10:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.138.148 with SMTP id a20ls970351qau.5.gmail; Mon, 30 May 2011 10:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.203.133 with SMTP id fi5mr1675709qab.20.1306776253723; Mon, 30 May 2011 10:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.96.6 with SMTP id f6msqan; Mon, 30 May 2011 09:46:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.189.193 with SMTP id df1mr636608vcb.7.1306773999818; Mon, 30 May 2011 09:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dr5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Mon, 30 May 2011 09:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 09:46:39 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110422 Linux Mint/10 (Julia) Firefox/3.6.17,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban-beginners] Who created the universe? no da, zi'o, etc. From: paul_faehrbrorn To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: pa.fae@gmx.de Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everybody, I have been reading about Lojban for quite while now, more or less read through the CLL, and started playing around with the language. So, I do have a grasp of moderately simple sentences (with a very restricted vocabulary, that is), but I often find myself bumping my mind either on Lojban grammar or on the underlying logic in general. Which is probably why Lojban is such a nice thing. :) I have now succeeded in confusing myself most utterly with the following (made-up) Lojban question and answers: lo munje cu se cupra ma a) no da b) zi'o c) na'i d) vo'a e) ri f) ri poi cevni [feeling a little bit panentheistic here ...?] Now, my questions are partly about the meaning (in this context) of the cmavo involved, and partly about syntactical correctness: If the premise be that the world as such has not been produced/built/ created by any entity (so, more or less the common sense assumption that the world just there, and that's about it ...)---could anybody please help me understand the difference in meaning between answers a) and b), and b) and c)? I think that a) is about an empty set of world-creators. But could we, then, still say that the world is "se cupra"? Probably yes, since, if not, would a) not *entail c)? b) looks like a normal "fill-in-the-sumti" answer to a "ma"-question, but does in fact turn the bridi "se cupra" into the different bridi "se cupra zi'o", doesn't it? Is that grammatically, pragmatically possible? What does it mean? And c) seems to claim that it is not meaningful to say of the world that it is created by somebody---does that mean that "lo munje cu se cupra no da" isn't meaningful, either? And, finally, if I were to claim that the world created itself (whatever that may mean), would answers d) to f) be grammatically correct, and would they refer to "lo munje", as intended? (If something like this has already been discussed, could you point me to it? I didn't find it then, sorry.) Thanks Paul F=E4hrbrorn PS: I'm learning Lojban through English, but I'm not a native English speaker. Please be forbearing with regard to quirky English. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.