From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDaxKXvBBoExnhP5g@googlegroups.com Fri Jun 03 15:38:32 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QSd0e-0001yV-3s; Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:32 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf2678046qwh.16 for ; Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZueCRcDvOkxOdaUfTrdMtv8yljhQt/NdzhgPFZ8EKYk=; b=UGz8XhpLSRt/V5A3O7TQOFwIFiK7hK03Ihw5QLp6Oo1lZXvAs7LBCy72BwXOZvVsTZ 8MZsP42sEc21KWLDgMdUkvbmGBorGudhSSaPQnW6jyoT+ZcWAU+7+4uolZWjgtOB9goF qWl2T2m4H1SM8d9PNPxEYAOrEOiYS7rJ6FKFc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=bKKjSx9WRXIbgT/Y3B4UgnGp6p66XysQF2lIT/7jhmOMgrcDfwtt9L9Qe/IF8PYODM eB/J6vfV8CmF2qrHj2pDWy6kTWLF7HUsK5cBF5H6+yqg9v6qYTHQMc1nC2M935ERie23 wDu47hBFxo/ZYVYuWB6vCR9vToJFgmGd6oobA= Received: by 10.224.27.72 with SMTP id h8mr42244qac.58.1307140698941; Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.182.134 with SMTP id cc6ls608319qab.4.gmail; Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.17.211 with SMTP id t19mr141852qaa.16.1307140698240; Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.17.211 with SMTP id t19mr141851qaa.16.1307140698227; Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f174.google.com ([209.85.220.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fb36si1987681qcb.3.2011.06.03.15.38.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.174; Received: by vxi39 with SMTP id 39so2287902vxi.5 for ; Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.181.193 with SMTP id dy1mr578181vdc.73.1307140697635; Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.183.129 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Jun 2011 15:38:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 19:38:17 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Just to double check, about {da} and quantifiers From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > 2011/6/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas : >> >> "ro da poi ..." translates into English as "each x such that ...", or >> if you wish, as "each of the members of the set ...". It is certainly >> not each of the members of the set. > > =A0I think either you or I must have skipped a groove here (to use old > vinyl metaphors). =A0How can you say in one breath both that it > translats as "each of the members of the set" and "it is certainly not > each of the members of the set"? =A0 Which is it??? Both. "ro sumti" translates as "every sumti". "ro sumti" is two words, it's also a single sumti, it is certainly not every sumti. See the difference? You may argue that you were not using the quote marks to quote, but were using them for something else (to indicate that the words were not in Engish maybe?) So what you wanted to say was "ro da poi gerku je mlatu cu nomei" and not "lu ro da poi gerku je mlatu li'u cu nomei", which is what you did say. Your full sentence was: >In a universe where "ro da poi gerku je mlatu" is a > nomei, "no da poi gerku je mlatu" refers to the same thing (an empty > set). You were clearly talking about the expression "no da poi gerku je mlatu", so I assumed you were also talking about tthe expression "ro da poi gerku je mlatu". Mention, not use. If what you meant to say was thatin a universe where "ro da poi gerku je mlatu cu nomei" is true, "no da poi gerku je mlatu cu nomei" is also true, then I think we agreed about that many times already. Does that clear this bit up? You used quotes for something other than quoting and I read them as quoting. >>>> First you would have to explain how anything at all can be a nomei. My >>>> understanding is that "ro da zo'u da su'o mei", "For every x, x is >>>> something". =A0No thing is a nomei. >>> >>> =A0Unless there are in fact, no things. >> >> No, even in that case, "ro da su'o mei" and "no da no mei" are still >> true. Every thing is a su'o mei and no thing is a no mei. >> >> (It is also the case, in that weird special case of an empty universe, >> that "ro da no mei" and "no da su'o mei". But that doesn't warrant >> your "unless".) > > =A0But that is PRECISELY my "unless". But surely that's not how "unless" works. If I say that no thing is a nomei, you can't say "unless there are, in fact, no things", because even in that very case, it is still true that no thing is a nomei. In the empty universe it is NOT the case that some thing is a nomei. Your "unless" just doesn't work. [...] (I deleted a lot of stuff where I think you are confusing the sentences we are discussing with the metalanguage used to discuss those sentences. If you think I missed something important please feel free to bring it up again.) > However, it's another step removed from the original "lo no..." > question. For me: lo no broda =3D zo'e noi ge ro ke'a broda gi lu'o ke'a no mei For me one of the presuppositions of "lo no broda" (that it refers to something, because "zo'e" must have some value) contradicts another of its presuppositions (that it doesn't refer to anything, because "lu'o ke'a nomei" cannot be true for any value of the variable). For you "lo no broda" expands to something else, it is not "zo'e noi...", which must have referent(s), for you it's something like "ro da poi ...", which doesn't have referents. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.