From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRC646_vBBoEjnrMPg@googlegroups.com Sun Jun 05 14:14:48 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QTKeh-0007ip-IQ; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:48 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf4574799qwh.16 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qz2dMbSYMajgsw3DT08Xa3Ki/eTkJRdPY3ITwVAjONw=; b=gbvFLisQLQZnwmxAdNYl3WSY81Ncb48KTiJeqz/dDFMbhIetu2IyHrFeE5UmhWCfXV lScAl78N7p9QBct8uClt1TeErXh1XvVOJEhwCAkSKhkHJlKbcfs84DBESAFH7iJ8HDFh 3uQPR2CERdLC6VB1u0NZqX66wqfnwsbPX9T1s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=cMuOqYsllKTYGvf/kz0trNWfmyFtW02w2Qu+UolEt3mn5C6kp1EZpn39+KLNxKXY4X UFMcOq3abaT9Cej9Gh2oYaw1GNJELW8dMpWE7DMAQvM4FwFRs1Lh/SyyNd8fLoSWblqR rH6IbODb4Jl/iEvd4ZSmGhGj9T14KSCHdAONU= Received: by 10.229.48.136 with SMTP id r8mr455506qcf.41.1307308474914; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.175.74 with SMTP id w10ls838945qaz.0.gmail; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.215.3 with SMTP id hc3mr705367qab.4.1307308474334; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.215.3 with SMTP id hc3mr705366qab.4.1307308474323; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f180.google.com ([209.85.220.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o12si3711562qcu.0.2011.06.05.14.14.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.180; Received: by vxk12 with SMTP id 12so4380312vxk.39 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.180.135 with SMTP id do7mr1795105vdc.273.1307308473548; Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.183.129 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Jun 2011 14:14:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 18:14:33 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Just to double check, about {da} and quantifiers From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> If I say that no thing is a nomei, you can't say "unless there are, in >> fact, no things", because even in that very case, it is still true >> that no thing is a nomei. In the empty universe it is NOT the case >> that some thing is a nomei. Your "unless" just doesn't work. > > =A0Again, You seem to contradict yourself. I don't think so. >=A0If "ro da no mei" is true > in an empty universe (and I agree it is) =A0then for any value of da: da > no mei =A0So some thing is a nomei, "So"? How do you move from "every" to "some" in an empty universe? Which thing? In an empty universe there are no values for a variable to take! That's what an empty universe is, a universe with no values for the variables. There are no things, how can be there one that is a nomei? > and in fact, every thing is a nomei. > =A0How can you say one thing, and then flat out contradict it? Where did I say that something is a nomei? You seem to be confusing variables with values. Just because you can fill the x1 of nomei with some words and get a true sentence does not mean that something is a nomei. From "everything is a nomei" you want to infer that therefore "something is a nomei". But that's precisely what you cannot do in an empty universe. You cannot infer "su'o da broda" from "ro da broda" in that case. >> For me: lo no broda =3D zo'e noi ge ro ke'a broda gi lu'o ke'a no mei > > =A0I'm sorry, where did the "ro" creep in from? Do you think not all the referents of broda need be broda? In any case, that's the open question from the other thread, do we need each referent of "lo broda" to be a broda, or could they just be broda together, not necessarily individually? For me it's an open question, so feel free to remove the "ro" if you wish. > (I would agree that to > be the correct expansion of "ro lo no broda" in your understanding) Not at all. "ro lo no broda" is an incomplete expression, it needs a bridi for the quantifier to quantify. It cannot be reduced to a "zo'e". >> For you "lo no broda" expands to something else, it is not "zo'e >> noi...", which must have referent(s), for you it's something like "ro >> da poi ...", which doesn't have referents. > > =A0(And again, only if I said "ro lo no broda") would I agree with that. Then you must think "zo'e" can have no values. How else do you get "lo no broda" to be equivalent to "zo'e"? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.