From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRD-o7XvBBoE0wPrTg@googlegroups.com Mon Jun 06 15:17:44 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QTi7D-0007C1-8f; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:44 -0700 Received: by vxk20 with SMTP id 20sf2678633vxk.16 for ; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SKkHU1vOVnk6b5oFlX4IaD7j2UtkildJkVeaoDkrkmc=; b=B/Qf91UHmuvW1AAga6zTWHLPKgrHUvC3f2vyE96iWShURCoU4XasCRDCVl84+Wk8+a yeB/dzp1dUjF9X8bU0J1GBmHecT/y+bE/5LyojOeGoSIie9UVSTrWLLShkLECxVtSCjA XkQHkJo3ASpyzPJYsFWCqeu+rVUBhguJ9Fe4c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=FYtUfrOYv6F5JbMs7AsR3RKAT+twgt+5lDTsnMSg1RgRlwbMiwlYrXzSjM3fnJ8Dp4 f1Zq3wkDORnCkMuCLa3gE26IvDNBSJCFlds5ijHn8iZfPTxFYuQUQF5+RvelExOYmYb/ pU4gJqdy18LJMPsTAmffz7qn667q2tjPzroGI= Received: by 10.220.49.159 with SMTP id v31mr201707vcf.57.1307398654087; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.187.102 with SMTP id fr6ls2093575vdc.0.gmail; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.178.130 with SMTP id cy2mr1367739vdc.24.1307398653374; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.178.130 with SMTP id cy2mr1367738vdc.24.1307398653365; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f45.google.com (mail-vw0-f45.google.com [209.85.212.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cy4si4070205vdc.1.2011.06.06.15.17.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.45; Received: by mail-vw0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 17so4008665vws.32 for ; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.180.135 with SMTP id do7mr261571vdc.273.1307398653053; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.183.129 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 19:17:32 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Just to double check, about {da} and quantifiers From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > =A0Please explain further. =A0I'm not sure I understand how "lo no broda" > is "complete" and "ro lo no broda" is "incomplete"? For sensible values of PA, "lo PA broda" is complete in the sense that you don't need anything else to understand what it means. It's like "ta", or "mi", or any (unquantified) sumti. It's a pointer to one or more things in the universe of discourse. PA tells you how many. "lo no broda" would have to be a pointer that doesn't point to anything. "PA lo broda", on the other hand, (or "PA ta", or "PA do", or any other quantified sumti) doesn't have a meaning until you use it in a bridi. because what the quantifier says is how many of the values of the sumti make the bridi true. Without a bridi, the quantifier doesn't tell us much. "ci ta" means "three of those things are such that ...", "no ta" means "none of those things are such that ...". In both cases it's incomplete. In both cases you are referring to those same things, but three of them what? None of them what? > =A0That being said, I think that maybe I could in fact believe that > "zo'e gerku je mlatu" is a meaningful utterance (although none I would > ever say) where zo'e's "obvious from context" value is "no da". But "no da" is not a value. In fact "no da" says "there is no value for 'da' such that: [something or other involving the place holder 'da']" The values of "zo'e" have to be values, not some words. > =A0But I > was willing to concede your POV that zo'e cannot be a nomei, since you > were wiling to give me an altenate formulation of my belief. The formulation I offered, (i.e. "no da broda .i je ro de poi broda ...") might apply to "ro lo no broda". I don't think we have a full formulation for your plain "lo no broda" yet. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.