From lojban-beginners+bncCK7Yk5CUCxCmzaDwBBoEuoSkNQ@googlegroups.com Sun Jun 26 23:48:11 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qb5Z5-0006Md-Gv; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:47:56 -0700 Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4sf3109328pzk.16 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=lQMzhTNLTP0bOkkwVE7zQ+yVIvG2C8ndGEBKPMw6BPs=; b=ac3E6LxHATEJ7u8ZLUFSb/X1rz+p6Fel8bTJ6CMGXe4nzBq1oJDObnjvPG0urAQzow fpVXL3pLA911Wu9EsvMuDYBYhYtNbkqtW1Y1WelAMYDHcPOsta5Q1kEpQHFot4jXN0N+ in+wzuqJpq31ed2EcHIpYBp4uPND7FgRs1/Ww= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=pPY14kbH0KssM6eEFO8rHuWfq1+BsiBZu/AE1+MqlKb9JQlI53dgFUqM/8n6eus+ew wI5pKjWzVc7IoSY9sw+yyqdJVbPk2oNEC1qV6xCFNp4XZq3hM/0nKoAnboRMvmCGIz8W TXgAd8jbIjGLWrUrH2wCOHpdPH3Lur2yZ/OIQ= Received: by 10.142.216.8 with SMTP id o8mr944546wfg.29.1309157030071; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.36.67 with SMTP id o3ls1313742pbj.0.gmail; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.33.161 with SMTP id s1mr804076pbi.80.1309157029105; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.33.161 with SMTP id s1mr804075pbi.80.1309157029094; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f51.google.com (mail-pw0-f51.google.com [209.85.160.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v9si4456698pbc.2.2011.06.26.23.43.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.51; Received: by pwi18 with SMTP id 18so2927977pwi.38 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.0.163 with SMTP id 3mr311664pbf.137.1309157028696; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.54.132 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:43:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 08:43:48 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Using "nu" From: Remo Dentato To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Ben Foppa wrote: > > melbi fa lonu lo senva cu sanji le sevzi > > Aiming for "Self-aware dreams are beautiful", or, more precisely: > "beautiful are dreams which are aware of the self". It seem to me: "the event of the dreamer being conscious of himself is beautiful". In other words, you deem beautiful the fact that a dreamer is (or can be) conscious of himself. If you meant, instead, that "lucid dreaming" is beautiful in itself, I would go with: {lo nu sanji senva cu melbi}. If are the "dreams" that are beautiful, then you won't need {nu} at all: {lo sanji selsne cu melbi} I think the tanru {sanji senva} ("x1 makes a conscious type of dream about x2") renders "lucid dream" quite precisely as in lucid dreams one is aware of the the fact that he is dreaming, not necessarily he is aware of his ego. I still have a problem with {melbi} since it is meant for aesthetic judgment, I suspect that you meant "beautiful" in some other sense (maybe {pluka}?) for which there's not a direct translation in Lojban. Note that dreams can't be aware of anything and they do not have a "self". Only dreamers do. > 1. Is this correct? I'm a little confused as to how to turn "lo senva > cu sanji le sevzi" into a sumti. It is grammatically correct but I don't think is what you meant. I'm not sure why you want to convert it into a sumti but the easiest way is probably to transform it in "the dreamer who is conscious of self" -> {lo senva poi sanji le sevzi} > 2. I'm thinking that not using "fa" (i.e. "lonu lo senva cu sanji le > sevzi cu melbi") wouldn't work, because it's sort of vague as to what > the "nu" encompasses. Is this correct? Lojban grammar is never ambiguous. in you case is: { << lonu lo senva cu sanji le sevzi >> cu melbi} {nu} (and all the other abstractions} take an entire bridi so you simply stop before the second {cu}. When you're in doubt, try to use jboski (or jbofihe) to check how the sentence parses. Use the terminator {kei} to define where the abstraction ends if the default rules give you something different from what you want. > 3. Is my use of "lo" twice correct? How would meanings change if I > used: {le} is specific in the sense that you're talking about a dream (and/or dreamer) you have in mind (and possibly identified by the context of what is being said). {lo} is more generic but almost always correct. Stay with {lo} as much as possible and you'll never be wrong :) (I still have problems following this rule myself). Enjoy your holiday trip to Lojbanistan :) mu'o mi'e remod. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.