From lojban-beginners+bncCMLaiI6rCBDl_qXwBBoExJgH-g@googlegroups.com Tue Jun 28 00:15:01 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QbSVa-0002yt-La; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:15:01 -0700 Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31sf7971297qyk.16 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:14:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+4d1qUGvyrbuInyPUO+3cDE1c2dzdgvPwSPXeaIza/Y=; b=kqgobpGiD/XXeoR0e20GvQtgsbjGhQ/p83+BZkjNxm6IPJ73XaLI85AS9rGVwlv514 ShriLGMuUDLlmsVFMNgbqQJ0Rvt0AVXo9kWvLBkgBPcxZ4OtHqzGEXd7EzNNQXntvnrT VWcIluuzKlORtujaKP7ERk5+kRvZv8hcOEDEY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ot8/cEY9CsgPLQHIPpowegMW9YahcQ6k7nllObR3TEmIjh1VgBgtPvJVoNByRg7Jzu oH7Sdv+dLldtzbhMR6LtNlyGI0EQRqv3zKXjnKSzVR/3xeHsjjrgF9wrJbbPaMHSwblh oK13+5hBXwFm0Zl7Vb5hoABpAo+MtwF++sShg= Received: by 10.224.32.76 with SMTP id b12mr693732qad.41.1309245285626; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.183.131 with SMTP id cg3ls1422818qab.0.gmail; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:14:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.203.8 with SMTP id fg8mr846863qab.54.1309245284984; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by u19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:14:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/534.30 (KHTML, like Gecko) Ubuntu/11.04 Chromium/12.0.742.91 Chrome/12.0.742.91 Safari/534.30,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Using "nu" From: ianek To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: janek37@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is {senva} the correct word here? To me, dream/reverie means something one would like to happen and ponders it, as in "I have a dream". The sleeping kind of dream I'd translate as {sipxanri}. The main problem here is that the gismu definitions are written in an ambiguous language, but synonyms in them are meant to disambiguate. You wouldn't call an animal {lo stela} if it's {lo pinpedi}. In my rarbau "sleeping dream" and "daydream/reverie" are completely different words. By the way, I've had a half-lucid dream this night. I started to fly and I knew that it's possible only in a dream, but I didn't care much. It was a good flight, even if I was mildly concious that somewhere else I lay on a bed. mu'o mi'e ianek On Jun 27, 8:43=A0am, Remo Dentato wrote: > On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Ben Foppa wro= te: > > > melbi fa lonu lo senva cu sanji le sevzi > > > Aiming for "Self-aware dreams are beautiful", or, more precisely: > > "beautiful are dreams which are aware of the self". > > It seem to me: "the event of the dreamer being conscious of himself is > beautiful". In other words, you deem beautiful the fact that a dreamer > is (or can be) conscious of himself. > > If you meant, instead, that "lucid dreaming" is beautiful in itself, I > would go with: {lo nu sanji senva cu melbi}. > > If are the "dreams" that are beautiful, then you won't need {nu} at > all: {lo sanji selsne cu melbi} > > I think the tanru {sanji senva} ("x1 makes a conscious type of dream > about x2") renders "lucid dream" quite precisely as in lucid dreams > one is aware of the the fact that he is dreaming, not necessarily he > is aware of his ego. > > I still have a =A0problem with {melbi} since it is meant for aesthetic > judgment, I suspect that you meant "beautiful" in some other sense > (maybe {pluka}?) for which there's not a direct translation in Lojban. > > Note that dreams can't be aware of anything and they do not have a > "self". Only dreamers do. > > > 1. Is this correct? I'm a little confused as to how to turn "lo senva > > cu sanji le sevzi" into a sumti. > > It is grammatically correct but I don't think is what you meant. I'm > not sure why you want to convert it into a sumti but the easiest way > is probably to transform it in "the dreamer who is conscious of self" > -> {lo senva poi sanji le sevzi} > > > 2. I'm thinking that not using "fa" (i.e. "lonu lo senva cu sanji le > > sevzi cu melbi") wouldn't work, because it's sort of vague as to what > > the "nu" encompasses. Is this correct? > > Lojban grammar is never ambiguous. in you case is: > =A0{ << lonu lo senva cu sanji le sevzi >> cu melbi} > > {nu} (and all the other abstractions} take an entire bridi so you > simply stop before the second {cu}. > > When you're in doubt, try to use jboski (or jbofihe) to check how the > sentence parses. Use the terminator {kei} to define where the > abstraction ends if the default rules give you something different > from what you want. > > > 3. Is my use of "lo" twice correct? How would meanings change if I > > used: > > {le} is specific in the sense that you're talking about a dream > (and/or dreamer) you have in mind (and possibly identified by the > context of what is being said). > {lo} is more generic but almost always correct. Stay with {lo} as much > as possible and you'll never be wrong :) (I still have problems > following this rule myself). > > Enjoy your holiday trip to Lojbanistan :) > > mu'o mi'e remod. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.