From lojban-beginners+bncCNCCoMTMDhCw-uXwBBoEh-k_AA@googlegroups.com Sun Jul 10 03:21:49 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qfr8z-0006Zk-7f; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:49 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf1498113pvc.16 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=psBd8LOwR4ykrmYvyLJqTtKFmfff4Oe2lBDjVjn7yWI=; b=Ck0KdQQ8M+2h+72M0F172qLnvBMpCEUZLnxS1lR8FUqQmwB5pW5+knQKeYLT1zgXk9 jMa1bSShTwuZaWkz0xiAM+lznir47QqDE4LiS8BYJBCZebvipCgGqUsv+CzqMAoDDO3R t5+bKqu5WAKz4O+ynM0fJauOjLk9Uf1zNvYs4= Received: by 10.142.97.20 with SMTP id u20mr148240wfb.7.1310293296893; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.47.4 with SMTP id z4ls3996280pbm.0.gmail; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.42.69 with SMTP id m5mr518368pbl.6.1310293295289; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.42.69 with SMTP id m5mr518367pbl.6.1310293295277; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com (mail-pv0-f172.google.com [74.125.83.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c10si24587934pbn.1.2011.07.10.03.21.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.172; Received: by pvh18 with SMTP id 18so2184011pvh.3 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.11.12 with SMTP id 12mr1354130wfk.290.1310293295068; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.93.3 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 03:21:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20580435.1853.1310279891253.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqfu15> References: <20580435.1853.1310279891253.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqfu15> From: Stela Selckiku Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 06:21:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] cabra and minji To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 2:38 AM, najrut wrote: > What's the difference in mening between cabra and minji ? A cabra needs a push each time it does something. You can push a button on it (or whatever) and then it does something once and then it's done. A minji has its own agenda and does things on its own. It does something once an hour, or when the room gets warm enough, or whatever. It's not a bright line. A wind-up toy is probably a minji. A ball rolling down a ramp is a simple cabra-- but wait, is it a minji once you let go of the ball, since it keeps rolling on its own? Probably not. It's too simple. But the simpleness of that simplicity that defines a cabra is hard to precisely define. The behavior of a minji is more autonomous, more responsive, more complicated. If the behavior of something gets even more autonomous, responsive, and complicated we start to call it a prenu. We all agree that Watson isn't a prenu even though it can answer a certain kind of question about the world more accurately than most of us. But soon we'll have to carefully debate just where that line is. The line between a cabra and a minji is similar, if less politically loaded. Imagine though a society that outlaws minji and you could have as intense a debate about that line. It's not really that hard to imagine, since there's something eerie about minji, something subjectively very different in how we experience them. They come alive. Not completely alive, but enough that you have to count them as an actor in how you imagine the world, expecting that they could react semi-purposefully at any time to events as they unfold. If those terms seem insufficiently precise, well that's gismu for you. They cover broad spaces and represent many fuzzy concepts that are important to modern humans. Over time we'll develop more precise philosophical terms in the -pre (prenu) and -mi'i (minji) and -ca'a (cabra) families. At the moment all I can think of off the top of my head is {jimpre}, metal person, which is a silly term for the sort of shiny silver android that goes around saying "Hello! I Am A Robot And I Am Glad To Meet You!" Over time we can develop more terms (like perhaps "sapmi'i", sampu zei minji, simple+machine, something only barely complicated enough to be a minji) that could create more clarity. mu'o mi'e la stela selckiku -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.