From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBDGg_LwBBoE7_XRHA@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 12 10:18:11 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qggb1-0004Da-9B; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:18:11 -0700 Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf10171284wwf.16 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:18:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=GqYfRpiroml+Seo+6cdXNZVPUPHYdYjbP1bP5rxL7TM=; b=b31j03j9uNyJTZqjDq2Bzt+6etnYuXCLkHmew9LoI02uFyleep1u2/RCFeWvL1Qhgs rP0W/FJeHJynDNtBD4nAbcxKNbBH85xTkf+RCAY3cDO9iN68Iq4QwXRTHM7sLzV8cBoP rl4R9tPmNK/nANhhub3B/D8UvRLSU5yncg6Cs= Received: by 10.216.78.133 with SMTP id g5mr1822684wee.19.1310491078376; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:17:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.25.95 with SMTP id y71ls43328eey.1.gmail; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.236.216 with SMTP id w66mr298584weq.10.1310491077474; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.236.216 with SMTP id w66mr298583weq.10.1310491077436; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f180.google.com (mail-wy0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c25si6629168wbp.1.2011.07.12.10.17.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.180; Received: by mail-wy0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 20so5750959wye.39 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.6.197 with SMTP id y47mr4360673wes.55.1310491077104; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:17:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:17:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E1C7EA3.4080205@plasmatix.com> References: <4E1C75F0.4080407@plasmatix.com> <4E1C793B.6060807@plasmatix.com> <4E1C7EA3.4080205@plasmatix.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:17:37 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Allowing empty {soi} To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf302ad69821d3cf04a7e27ba5 --20cf302ad69821d3cf04a7e27ba5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ahh, yeah I can see how that would work. As it is now, I don't like how {soi} works when only one sumti is specified e.g. "mi prami do soi mi" = "mi prami do .ijebo do prami mi". I think it's in need of a rethinking or a scrapping. In the re-thinking I think it should be possible for it to take 0 to n arguments (where 3 or more arguments means that all 3 arguments can be switched around in any order and the bridi still holds true). e.g. {mi nelci do .e la .bab. .e la .pam. soi mi do by py} = .... well I'm not going to say that all out in lojban, but basically me, you, pam, and bob all like each other. And as you say, when 0 or 1 arguments are given the missing arguments are {zo'e}. The whole "if only one argument is given then take the last sumti to be the second argument" thing kind of creeps me out (though I can't say why). On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Miles Forster wrote: > Am 12.07.2011 18:57, schrieb Luke Bergen: > > ok, so my question is, what are the specific rules that make it such that >> in "soi broda fa ko'a ko'e ko'i" "ko'e" and "ko'i" are the ones that are >> reciprocal and not "ko'a" and one of the other two? >> > > No rules, just context. The other possibilities there just didn't make > sense. The point of empty {soi} is to save time in obvious situations, but > when confusion is feared, you can still fill one or both sumti in as usual. > > > > As in, could you describe how you think {soi} should work in terms like >> "when soi is encountered, take the first sumti and the last sumti of the >> current level bridi and make them reciprocal" or some such? >> > Again, there is no rule here. If context doesn't make it clear, don't use > empty {soi}. > > > >> Something human readable but which seems like it could be described to a >> parser. >> > This is easy I believe. {soi} *always* eats exactly two sumti. This won't > change, and so > {soi ko'a se'u} == {soi ko'a zo'e se'u} > and > {soi se'u} == {soi zo'e zo'e se'u} > which means also that > {soi broda} == {soi zo'e zo'e se'u broda} > ({soi} being a free modifier.) > > > > -- > /p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/ > /bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.**com > . > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** > group/lojban-beginners?hl=en > . > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --20cf302ad69821d3cf04a7e27ba5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ahh, yeah I can see how that would work.

As it is now, I= don't like how {soi} works when only one sumti is specified e.g. "= ;mi prami do soi mi" =3D "mi prami do .ijebo do prami mi".

I think it's in need of a rethinking or a scrapping= . =A0In the re-thinking I think it should be possible for it to take 0 to n= arguments (where 3 or more arguments means that all 3 arguments can be swi= tched around in any order and the bridi still holds true). =A0e.g. {mi nelc= i do .e la .bab. .e la .pam. soi mi do by py} =3D .... well I'm not goi= ng to say that all out in lojban, but basically me, you, pam, and bob all l= ike each other. =A0And as you say, when 0 or 1 arguments are given the miss= ing arguments are {zo'e}.

The whole "if only one argument is given then take= the last sumti to be the second argument" thing kind of creeps me out= (though I can't say why).

On Tue, Ju= l 12, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Miles Forster <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:
Am 12.07.2011 18:57, schrieb Luke Bergen:
ok, so my question is, what are the specific rules that make it such that i= n "soi broda fa ko'a ko'e ko'i" "ko'e" = and "ko'i" are the ones that are reciprocal and not "ko&= #39;a" and one of the other two?

No rules, just context. The other possibilities there just didn't make = sense. The point of empty {soi} is to save time in obvious situations, but = when confusion is feared, you can still fill one or both sumti in as usual.=



As in, could you describe how you think {soi} should work in terms like &qu= ot;when soi is encountered, take the first sumti and the last sumti of the = current level bridi and make them reciprocal" or some such?
Again, there is no rule here. If context doesn't make it clear, don'= ;t use empty {soi}.



Something human readable but which seems like it could be described to a pa= rser.
This is easy I believe. {soi} *always* eats exactly two sumti. This won'= ;t change, and so
{soi ko'a se'u} =3D=3D {soi ko'a zo'e se'u}
and
{soi se'u} =3D=3D {soi zo'e zo'e se'u}
which means also that
{soi broda} =3D=3D {soi zo'e zo'e se'u broda}
({soi} being a free modifier.)



--
/p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/
/bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/

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