From lojban-beginners+bncCNf8pM-bDBDCz7zwBBoEX-P-pw@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 02 07:14:37 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qd0xu-00089f-QN; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:14:37 -0700 Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31sf4651094qyk.16 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:14:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ATvmQKvICBgtsxEWQcb8YQQ+sm8SBI4W0O3xGmInOVk=; b=Z6GscKMHtBCx4iip2QPEuXO6s3EGOU7B0Kth/MHInhKZfmJOl78o+S89FoF9qvnz1Q +9+WoAQWNIKofWygS+gVB4zo/Uu5HwvfQydIJt1gazP+f4IwwSwsgTqgoWHXLf4qwibI 12iDjeViIU9Cjregpwd3l/N3p8ZAh22AWXLwI= Received: by 10.229.95.15 with SMTP id b15mr490651qcn.13.1309616066535; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:14:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.42.129 with SMTP id s1ls3212qae.6.gmail; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.209.132 with SMTP id gg4mr4753469qab.19.1309616065903; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.184.14 with SMTP id ci14msqab; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 04:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.126.224 with SMTP id d32mr743791qas.25.1309606375242; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 04:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.126.224 with SMTP id d32mr743790qas.25.1309606375224; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 04:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f172.google.com (mail-qy0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p20si3983032qca.0.2011.07.02.04.32.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 02 Jul 2011 04:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.172; Received: by qyk9 with SMTP id 9so352322qyk.17 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 04:32:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.8.138 with SMTP id h10mr3174689qch.105.1309606374837; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 04:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.228.70 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 04:32:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9f4ea774-cf05-4af3-94c7-5e2505aa7ed2@k16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> References: <1665dd93-53b2-4442-8b6d-ab80aabdcbda@b21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <9454fde3-7042-4c60-82d9-776f51b07b5c@t38g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <8ecaf8d7-810f-41e7-b4cc-9208b696f6ce@g16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com> <10004ed4-220c-4c41-8fb9-57de30a45bb3@16g2000yqy.googlegroups.com> <9f4ea774-cf05-4af3-94c7-5e2505aa7ed2@k16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 12:32:54 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: {le} and {lo} From: tijlan To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1 July 2011 23:43, Ben Foppa wrote: > it would seem that I would tell a > story using {le} instead of {lo}, as long as I'm thinking of a > persistent instance, and not talking about dogs in a more abstract > sense. That has been the traditional understanding and tendency of {le} in the community. Today, however, {lo} is gaining a more generic status due to the xorlo proposal. Compare the older and newer versions of Alice: http://www.lojban.org/texts/translations/alice/alice.pdf http://lojban.org/~rlpowell/alis/alis.html la alis co=92a tatpi le nu zutse le rirxe korbi re=92o le mensi gi=92e zu= kte fi noda la .alis. co'a tatpi lo nu zutse lo rirxe korbi re'o lo mensi gi'e zukte fi no da i abuboi so=92uroi sutra zgana le cukta poi le mensi cu tcidu .i .abu cu so'u roi sutra zgana lo cukta poi my tcidu The sister etc. are a persistent instance of mensi1 etc. throughout the story, and xorlo allows you to refer to such particular entities with either {le} or {lo}, the latter being the newer default choice when in doubt. > You seem to be implying that the distinction is more a question > of emphasis, that {le} emphasizes the specificity of the dog, and {lo} > implies its identity doesn't matter? That seems to be the case. The role of {lo} as a completely generic gadri (which is how it's defined in xorlo) would be to plainly form a sumti by taking the x1 of a selbri. No semantic additives. What's to be read from {lo mensi} above, for example, is that there is such mensi1 that constitutes the truth of the sentence. How particular this mensi1 is, may be inferred from the sentence's effective particularity itself. {la .alis. co'a tatpi lo nu ...} is a fairly specific statement, which becomes the context for its component terms (sumti, sumtcita) that would otherwise be understood as more general references. {lo mensi} in this sentence thus refers to not "mensi1" in general but "mensi1 next to whom Alice has been sitting on a river side and doing nothing such that Alice is getting tired". This specifying mechanism is mutual between the terms: {lo mensi} is understood in terms of {la .alis.}, {lo rirxe}, etc., {lo rirxe} in terms of {lo mensi}, {la .alis.}, etc., and so on. So, if {lo} itself doesn't detail the sumti's identity, it also suggests that specificities might be surmised from the context. mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.