From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARCz8LzwBBoELzoOGA@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 02 08:24:49 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qd23n-0004AL-JV; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:49 -0700 Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4sf281289pzk.16 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=i5JWXSU2vGOuU2jEXkoF+wFfHggtRC/lHQO+clHOs6I=; b=UR3Ae90WJ4QXBkWkgZFv+zkbkbueC5urb0h2XsKSKZxtwAPAyibUnrnwITLjVCz238 3R9GQQbI5GdGMjmSbiyiNb1rEWOXX7+Ifqqhy9VnUliWFqCbDalMrj2ct73dPhD5Vefl usfKLZXJlZAp7A8claX2bNJKvyWcdSBJK12Fs= Received: by 10.142.134.1 with SMTP id h1mr857273wfd.2.1309620275456; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.36.67 with SMTP id o3ls4701086pbj.0.gmail; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.0.167 with SMTP id 7mr966429pbf.23.1309620274916; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.0.167 with SMTP id 7mr966428pbf.23.1309620274894; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com (mail-pz0-f41.google.com [209.85.210.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c10si8993089pbn.1.2011.07.02.08.24.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.41; Received: by mail-pz0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 4so208718pzk.28 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.7.4 with SMTP id f4mr5048120pba.208.1309620274102; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.40.9 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 08:24:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1665dd93-53b2-4442-8b6d-ab80aabdcbda@b21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <9454fde3-7042-4c60-82d9-776f51b07b5c@t38g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <8ecaf8d7-810f-41e7-b4cc-9208b696f6ce@g16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com> <10004ed4-220c-4c41-8fb9-57de30a45bb3@16g2000yqy.googlegroups.com> <9f4ea774-cf05-4af3-94c7-5e2505aa7ed2@k16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 11:24:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: {le} and {lo} From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec517a7ca3a813504a717bbe5 --bcaec517a7ca3a813504a717bbe5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That contextual dependence is pretty straightforward from a formal perspective, though, given that ultimately {lo broda} is a {zo'e}. We're no= t losing formality anywhere here at the end of the day. mu'o mi'e latros On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 7:32 AM, tijlan wrote: > On 1 July 2011 23:43, Ben Foppa wrote: > > it would seem that I would tell a > > story using {le} instead of {lo}, as long as I'm thinking of a > > persistent instance, and not talking about dogs in a more abstract > > sense. > > That has been the traditional understanding and tendency of {le} in > the community. Today, however, {lo} is gaining a more generic status > due to the xorlo proposal. Compare the older and newer versions of > Alice: > > http://www.lojban.org/texts/translations/alice/alice.pdf > http://lojban.org/~rlpowell/alis/alis.html > > la alis co=92a tatpi le nu zutse le rirxe korbi re=92o le mensi gi=92e z= ukte fi > noda > la .alis. co'a tatpi lo nu zutse lo rirxe korbi re'o lo mensi gi'e > zukte fi no da > > i abuboi so=92uroi sutra zgana le cukta poi le mensi cu tcidu > .i .abu cu so'u roi sutra zgana lo cukta poi my tcidu > > The sister etc. are a persistent instance of mensi1 etc. throughout > the story, and xorlo allows you to refer to such particular entities > with either {le} or {lo}, the latter being the newer default choice > when in doubt. > > > You seem to be implying that the distinction is more a question > > of emphasis, that {le} emphasizes the specificity of the dog, and {lo} > > implies its identity doesn't matter? > > That seems to be the case. The role of {lo} as a completely generic > gadri (which is how it's defined in xorlo) would be to plainly form a > sumti by taking the x1 of a selbri. No semantic additives. What's to > be read from {lo mensi} above, for example, is that there is such > mensi1 that constitutes the truth of the sentence. How particular this > mensi1 is, may be inferred from the sentence's effective particularity > itself. {la .alis. co'a tatpi lo nu ...} is a fairly specific > statement, which becomes the context for its component terms (sumti, > sumtcita) that would otherwise be understood as more general > references. {lo mensi} in this sentence thus refers to not "mensi1" in > general but "mensi1 next to whom Alice has been sitting on a river > side and doing nothing such that Alice is getting tired". This > specifying mechanism is mutual between the terms: {lo mensi} is > understood in terms of {la .alis.}, {lo rirxe}, etc., {lo rirxe} in > terms of {lo mensi}, {la .alis.}, etc., and so on. > > So, if {lo} itself doesn't detail the sumti's identity, it also > suggests that specificities might be surmised from the context. > > > mu'o mi'e tijlan > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --bcaec517a7ca3a813504a717bbe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That contextual dependence is pretty straightforward from a formal perspect= ive, though, given that ultimately {lo broda} is a {zo'e}. We're no= t losing formality anywhere here at the end of the day.

mu'o mi&= #39;e latros

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 7:32 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com= > wrote:
On 1 July 2011 23:43, Ben Foppa <eatingstaples@gmail.com> wrote:
> it would seem that I would tell a
> story using {le} instead of {lo}, as long as I'm thinking of a
> persistent instance, and not talking about dogs in a more abstract
> sense.

That has been the traditional understanding and tendency of {le} in the community. Today, however, {lo} is gaining a more generic status
due to the xorlo proposal. Compare the older and newer versions of
Alice:

=A0http://www.lojban.org/texts/translations/alice/alice.pdf
=A0http://lojban.org/~rlpowell/alis/alis.html

=A0la alis co=92a tatpi le nu zutse le rirxe korbi re=92o le mensi gi=92e = zukte fi noda
=A0la .alis. co'a tatpi lo nu zutse lo rirxe korbi re'o lo mensi g= i'e
zukte fi no da

=A0i abuboi so=92uroi sutra zgana le cukta poi le mensi cu tcidu
=A0.i .abu cu so'u roi sutra zgana lo cukta poi my tcidu

The sister etc. are a persistent instance of mensi1 etc. throughout
the story, and xorlo allows you to refer to such particular entities
with either {le} or {lo}, the latter being the newer default choice
when in doubt.

> You seem to be implying that the distinction is more a question
> of emphasis, that {le} emphasizes the specificity of the dog, and {lo}=
> implies its identity doesn't matter?

That seems to be the case. The role of {lo} as a completely generic gadri (which is how it's defined in xorlo) would be to plainly form a sumti by taking the x1 of a selbri. No semantic additives. What's to be read from {lo mensi} above, for example, is that there is such
mensi1 that constitutes the truth of the sentence. How particular this
mensi1 is, may be inferred from the sentence's effective particularity<= br> itself. {la .alis. co'a tatpi lo nu ...} is a fairly specific
statement, which becomes the context for its component terms (sumti,
sumtcita) that would otherwise be understood as more general
references. {lo mensi} in this sentence thus refers to not "mensi1&quo= t; in
general but "mensi1 next to whom Alice has been sitting on a river
side and doing nothing such that Alice is getting tired". This
specifying mechanism is mutual between the terms: {lo mensi} is
understood in terms of {la .alis.}, {lo rirxe}, etc., {lo rirxe} in
terms of {lo mensi}, {la .alis.}, etc., and so on.

So, if {lo} itself doesn't detail the sumti's identity, it also
suggests that specificities might be surmised from the context.


mu'o mi'e tijlan

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