From lojban-beginners+bncCKmy2o7eDhCfk87wBBoERTI0UQ@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 05 15:01:17 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QeDg9-0005kl-6N; Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:01:16 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf1268209gxk.16 for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:01:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MLIBf+SxRJ/N5EW9Tbo8qvuRaBOZwMXYM0a8tC0zpfw=; b=Dpy6SWsg2TRpjLY2TGWuMFFxSzlLJuHKing1Y3aSXCGN0q1OuBwu1WBsUtv5eT++LF 0Fd4FrSvKu9TBJmVFLuL+kgSJIiEyCEM5H3ihFMawRuL2LHD7E7QJ2igML898ci//He1 qeUneEbSk7oFmt39h+mdty/B30kqpli8mqO5U= Received: by 10.147.12.13 with SMTP id p13mr584815yai.7.1309903264006; Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:01:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.77.32 with SMTP id e32ls2168494ybl.5.gmail; Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.186.69 with SMTP id v45mr4167726yhm.75.1309903262423; Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.135.8 with SMTP id m8msybn; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.2.25 with SMTP id e25mr492419agi.58.1309619033412; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by q5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1665dd93-53b2-4442-8b6d-ab80aabdcbda@b21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <9454fde3-7042-4c60-82d9-776f51b07b5c@t38g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <8ecaf8d7-810f-41e7-b4cc-9208b696f6ce@g16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com> <10004ed4-220c-4c41-8fb9-57de30a45bb3@16g2000yqy.googlegroups.com> <9f4ea774-cf05-4af3-94c7-5e2505aa7ed2@k16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/5.0,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <343942b4-d600-40d0-9e46-bdb9f6d82f59@q5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: {le} and {lo} From: Ben Foppa To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: eatingstaples@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jul 2, 7:32=A0am, tijlan wrote: > On 1 July 2011 23:43, Ben Foppa wrote: > > > it would seem that I would tell a > > story using {le} instead of {lo}, as long as I'm thinking of a > > persistent instance, and not talking about dogs in a more abstract > > sense. > > That has been the traditional understanding and tendency of {le} in > the community. Today, however, {lo} is gaining a more generic status > due to the xorlo proposal. Compare the older and newer versions of > Alice: > > =A0http://www.lojban.org/texts/translations/alice/alice.pdf > =A0http://lojban.org/~rlpowell/alis/alis.html > > =A0 la alis co=92a tatpi le nu zutse le rirxe korbi re=92o le mensi gi=92= e zukte fi noda > =A0 la .alis. co'a tatpi lo nu zutse lo rirxe korbi re'o lo mensi gi'e > zukte fi no da > > =A0 i abuboi so=92uroi sutra zgana le cukta poi le mensi cu tcidu > =A0 .i .abu cu so'u roi sutra zgana lo cukta poi my tcidu > > The sister etc. are a persistent instance of mensi1 etc. throughout > the story, and xorlo allows you to refer to such particular entities > with either {le} or {lo}, the latter being the newer default choice > when in doubt. > > > You seem to be implying that the distinction is more a question > > of emphasis, that {le} emphasizes the specificity of the dog, and {lo} > > implies its identity doesn't matter? > > That seems to be the case. The role of {lo} as a completely generic > gadri (which is how it's defined in xorlo) would be to plainly form a > sumti by taking the x1 of a selbri. No semantic additives. What's to > be read from {lo mensi} above, for example, is that there is such > mensi1 that constitutes the truth of the sentence. How particular this > mensi1 is, may be inferred from the sentence's effective particularity > itself. {la .alis. co'a tatpi lo nu ...} is a fairly specific > statement, which becomes the context for its component terms (sumti, > sumtcita) that would otherwise be understood as more general > references. {lo mensi} in this sentence thus refers to not "mensi1" in > general but "mensi1 next to whom Alice has been sitting on a river > side and doing nothing such that Alice is getting tired". This > specifying mechanism is mutual between the terms: {lo mensi} is > understood in terms of {la .alis.}, {lo rirxe}, etc., {lo rirxe} in > terms of {lo mensi}, {la .alis.}, etc., and so on. > > So, if {lo} itself doesn't detail the sumti's identity, it also > suggests that specificities might be surmised from the context. > > mu'o mi'e tijlan Alright, that.. sort of clears it up. I think I get it well enough to use it, now, thanks. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.