From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBCv1N_yBBoE-lc2Ew@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 26 11:47:25 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qx1R2-0004Ne-9J; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:24 -0700 Received: by vxh2 with SMTP id 2sf2542462vxh.16 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8+G9Q91B0G7yU/URHfNyli6blffhb3IHJsNJ0NXXMEs=; b=nUVJ2F5naQeDgdgQamyM4dBYa0U2zlJwgB8Z9XRG5iLkBwtL7xmUhVJi4a8dUDFQOO QAzxE6kGyl1FdLGhPwQ4LM3CGwRwcCEBDYyTpYBgGuVyVpI0EtHni9iQeQSyxyizg/ay wZta7Jm3LaoN2yMjxTZZdEsyvfMANx5sZ4C5k= Received: by 10.220.141.200 with SMTP id n8mr372741vcu.39.1314384431345; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.24.163 with SMTP id v3ls90384vdf.3.gmail; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.184.233 with SMTP id ex9mr1488735vdc.3.1314384430101; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.184.233 with SMTP id ex9mr1488734vdc.3.1314384430079; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f179.google.com (mail-vx0-f179.google.com [209.85.220.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bh5si2785727vdc.3.2011.08.26.11.47.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.179; Received: by vxh2 with SMTP id 2so2671400vxh.10 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.21.172 with SMTP id w12mr1603603vde.348.1314384429930; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.163.135 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.163.135 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:47:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <41f3563c-23b4-4c7b-96fc-8b5fcd11033a@z1g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:47:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban "r" From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307d00900b598504ab6cf99f --20cf307d00900b598504ab6cf99f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If that's the case than the lojban "lerfu" and "lrfu" sound indistinguishable to me regardless of whether the r is trilled tapped or whathaveyou On Aug 26, 2011 2:44 PM, "Jonathan Jones" wrote: > Yeah, well, I'd have to hear you say it, because I pronounce "pear", "pair", > and "pare" the same: {peir}. > > Regardless, I'm pretty sure that your pronunciation of {lerfu} is incorrect, > because the "er" in {lerfu} should sound like the "er" in payer". > > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> Ok, but at the same time, {ei} is described as like the "ay" in "pay" which >> is definitely NOT how I pronounce {lerfu}. Maybe "air" is a bad example. I >> say {lerfu} such that the {er} part rymes with "pear" and NOT "payer" >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> The Lojban sound-cluster that sounds like the English "air" is {eir}, not >>> {er}. .ebu is pronounced as the "e" in "b*e*tt*e*r", ""w*e*t", "p*e*st", >>> etc. The pronunciation example the CLL uses is "l*e*t"< http://dag.github.com/cll/2/2/>, >>> "What is Lojban?" lists the pronunciation in IPA as "e [E] ([e]): a front >>> mid vowel" , >>> "Lojban for Beginners" uses the example "g*e*t"< http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less1.html#less1vowels >, >>> and the English pronunciation guide uses the examples "b*e*t, l*e*ns"< http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Pronunciation+guide+in+English> >>> . >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> >>>> Is it? I thought the {er} in {lerfu} is supposed to be pronounced like >>>> english "air" (but with the r being trilled or tapped or whatever). I think >>>> if I heard someone in lojban say {lrfu} as though it rymed with "smurf-u" I >>>> would laugh my zargu off. It's just so english-y sounding. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> >>>>> My point is that the "er" in "better" is pronounced comparably to the >>>>> "er" in "lerfu". >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn < >>>>> rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I pronounce it as {betr} or if I'm enunciating as {betyr} >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you pronounce the English word better as "betteir"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Viral Lamb wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While trying to get back into learning lojban, I came across >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> I thought was rather important. When saying the word "lerfu" (which >>>>>>>> means letter I think) I noticed that it sounds like I'm saying >>>>>>>> "leirfu" (even though that isn't a word xD ). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I pronounce the letter "r" in lojban the same way I would in english, >>>>>>>> and I found that's the root of the problem. When pronouncing the "e" >>>>>>>> and "r" together, I can't help but say it like "leirfu". Using a >>>>>>>> "trilled r" such as in spanish or esperanto, the "e" sound doesn't >>>>>>>> turn into a "ei" sound. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there any other way to pronounce the "r" in lojban, cuz I think I >>>>>>>> can trill my "r"s most of the time, but I'm certainly not perfect. >>>>>>>> Trying to say "hamstron" the way the guy in this video says it (1:15) >>>>>>>> is certainly a challenge, yet good for practice. >>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCr1bV8kGk >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is this a big problem, or am I making too big a fuss? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Alex R >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >>>>>> . >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com . >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --20cf307d00900b598504ab6cf99f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If that's the case than the lojban "lerfu" and "lrfu&= quot; sound indistinguishable to me regardless of whether the r is trilled = tapped or whathaveyou

On Aug 26, 2011 2:44 PM, "Jonathan Jones&qu= ot; <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrot= e:
> Yeah, well, I'd have to hear you say it= , because I pronounce "pear", "pair",
> and "pare" the same: {peir}.
>
> Regardless, I&= #39;m pretty sure that your pronunciation of {lerfu} is incorrect,
> = because the "er" in {lerfu} should sound like the "er" = in payer".
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> =
>> Ok, but at the same time, {ei} is described as like the "= ay" in "pay" which
>> is definitely NOT how I pronounce {lerfu}. Maybe "air" = is a bad example. I
>> say {lerfu} such that the {er} part rymes = with "pear" and NOT "payer"
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>= >> The Lojban sound-cluster that sounds like the English "air&qu= ot; is {eir}, not
>>> {er}. .ebu is pronounced as the "e" in "b*e*tt*= e*r", ""w*e*t", "p*e*st",
>>> etc= . The pronunciation example the CLL uses is "l*e*t"<http://dag.github.com/cll/2/2/>, >>> "What is Lojban?" lists the pronunciation in IPA as = "e [E] ([e]): a front
>>> mid vowel" <http://lojban.o= rg/publications/level0/brochure/phonapp.html>,
>>> "Lojban for Beginners" uses the example "g*e*t&= quot;<http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/lojbanbrochur= e/lessons/less1.html#less1vowels>,
>>> and the English pronunciation guide uses the examples "b*= e*t, l*e*ns"<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Pronunciation+guide+in+English>
>>> .
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:1= 6 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@= gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it? I thoug= ht the {er} in {lerfu} is supposed to be pronounced like
>>>> english "air" (but with the r being trilled or t= apped or whatever). I think
>>>> if I heard someone in lojb= an say {lrfu} as though it rymed with "smurf-u" I
>>>= > would laugh my zargu off. It's just so english-y sounding.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jonat= han Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= ;wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My point is that the &q= uot;er" in "better" is pronounced comparably to the
>>>>> "er" in "lerfu".
>>>&g= t;>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Alex Rozen= shteyn <
>>>>> rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I pronounce it as {betr} o= r if I'm enunciating as {betyr}
>>>>>>
>>= >>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you pronounce t= he English word better as "betteir"?
>>>>>>&= gt;
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Viral = Lamb <jms1992@comcast.net>= wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While tryi= ng to get back into learning lojban, I came across
>>>>>&= gt;>> something
>>>>>>>> I thought was rat= her important. When saying the word "lerfu" (which
>>>>>>>> means letter I think) I noticed that it so= unds like I'm saying
>>>>>>>> "leirfu&q= uot; (even though that isn't a word xD ).
>>>>>>&g= t;>
>>>>>>>> I pronounce the letter "r" in lo= jban the same way I would in english,
>>>>>>>> a= nd I found that's the root of the problem. When pronouncing the "e= "
>>>>>>>> and "r" together, I can't he= lp but say it like "leirfu". Using a
>>>>>>&= gt;> "trilled r" such as in spanish or esperanto, the "e&= quot; sound doesn't
>>>>>>>> turn into a "ei" sound.
>&= gt;>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there an= y other way to pronounce the "r" in lojban, cuz I think I
>>>>>>>> can trill my "r"s most of the ti= me, but I'm certainly not perfect.
>>>>>>>> = Trying to say "hamstron" the way the guy in this video says it (1= :15)
>>>>>>>> is certainly a challenge, yet good for pra= ctice.
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DINCr1bV8kGk >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is thi= s a big problem, or am I making too big a fuss?
>>>>>>= >>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>= >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=
>>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.=
>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to>>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email= to
>>>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.c= om.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
&= gt;>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>= ;>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>&g= t;>>> --
>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys= .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai = ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>&= gt;>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>= ;>>>> --
>>>>>>> You received this mes= sage because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>&g= t; Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>&g= t;>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>> To = unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
= >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>&= gt;>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>= ;>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>= ;>>>>> Alex R
>>>>>>
>&= gt;>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscrib= ed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners&= quot; group.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email = to lojban-beginners@go= oglegroups.com
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from = this group, send email to
>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>&= gt;>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
&g= t;>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>= ;>>>> --
>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
= >>>>>
>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Y= ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>&g= t;>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<= br>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>= >>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>> = http://= groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>= ;>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
>>>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>= ;>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>&= gt;> = lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For = more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
&= gt;>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>= > --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.= e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>&= gt;>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are = subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Lojban Beginners"= ; group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> = lojban-b= eginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options= , visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>= >>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message = because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this gr= oup, send email to loj= ban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this gr= oup, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more op= tions, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-begin= ners?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .= aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi= .luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your f= ather. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To pos= t to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>

--
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--20cf307d00900b598504ab6cf99f--