From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCniODyBBoEmAApWg@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 26 13:38:15 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qx3AH-0003fD-7U; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:38:14 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf4807741fxd.16 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:38:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3u2a3WdebCuiGIZdKqyRsX5rJ+cYy4Uru82tm2GFMys=; b=rXJXW0o6Z/ULe4engxXKU73I/WIjgmpE3LQ50S5KlW6y+oT2fPZO+mEHzovplxGlI2 O6vp7y/jnqTKoZpJ+Aop+vmWwNOGzTYsCbzJTUKksxbwkOS7JbWwC2kcKAbVHU4isXKz vIGH7cq0ObsdKpEOM4D1q/nTf07mmjBlBxTyY= Received: by 10.223.25.193 with SMTP id a1mr508546fac.48.1314391079591; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:37:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.154.210 with SMTP id p18ls2008785bkw.3.gmail; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.131.208 with SMTP id y16mr292720bks.11.1314391078352; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.131.208 with SMTP id y16mr292719bks.11.1314391078311; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f43.google.com (mail-fx0-f43.google.com [209.85.161.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k16si894001fah.0.2011.08.26.13.37.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.43; Received: by mail-fx0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 17so3440088fxg.30 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.76.201 with SMTP id d9mr2194793fak.119.1314391078128; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.41.68 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <41f3563c-23b4-4c7b-96fc-8b5fcd11033a@z1g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:37:58 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban "r" From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151747bdba4ecc1604ab6e8599 --00151747bdba4ecc1604ab6e8599 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 No. Similar sounds, not the same. Pronounce {er} in lojban like {er}, with the "e" sound in "let". A syllabic "r" is pronounced with a short "schwa" sound- the sound .ybu makes. That's why syllabic "r" and {er} sound similar. All Lojban vowels are always pronounced the same way they are in the Romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian, Latin....), or, I recently learned, the same way they are pronounced in Japanese (which is the same as the Romance languages). On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > fair enough. So, basically I need to start pronouncing {er} in lojban like > a syllabic "r", correct? > > I always felt like I was "doing it wrong" when I pronounced lojban "er" > like I pronounce it in english as in "runner", "drinker", etc... because I > thought there should be a sound for {e} instead of it just sounding like you > need to drop the "e" and make the "r" syllabic. > > blech, it still sounds wrong. To me, the "er" in "runner" has zero "e" > like in "let" sound and that just feels wrong. Right now it feels like I'm > being told "when you see 'er' drop the 'e'" and that just sounds so wrong. > > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> The problem with that statement is that you're assuming that "lr" would >> always be pronounced like "ler". This isn't the case. In the nonexistent >> {lrfu}, it sounds like {lerfu} because the "r" is syllabic. A syllabic "r" >> is basically the same sound as "er" because it is pronounced with a short >> .ybu in front, {yr}, kind of like the "ir" in "fir (tree)". That doesn't >> mean when {lr} occurs it is always pronounced like that: in {cilre}, for >> instance, it is not a syllabic r - {cilre} isn't pronounced "sheel-e-re", >> it's pronounced "sheel-re". >> >> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >>> But it IS possible to have "lr" occur in a word and if "lr" sounds >>> identical to "ler" then lojban loses audio-visual isomorphism. >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> I don't see how that's a problem. I can't imagine a scenario in which >>>> "lrfu" would occur, let alone one in which it could be confused with >>>> {lerfu}. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >>>> >>>>> If that's the case than the lojban "lerfu" and "lrfu" sound >>>>> indistinguishable to me regardless of whether the r is trilled tapped or >>>>> whathaveyou >>>>> On Aug 26, 2011 2:44 PM, "Jonathan Jones" wrote: >>>>> > Yeah, well, I'd have to hear you say it, because I pronounce "pear", >>>>> "pair", >>>>> > and "pare" the same: {peir}. >>>>> > >>>>> > Regardless, I'm pretty sure that your pronunciation of {lerfu} is >>>>> incorrect, >>>>> > because the "er" in {lerfu} should sound like the "er" in payer". >>>>> > >>>>> > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Luke Bergen >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> Ok, but at the same time, {ei} is described as like the "ay" in >>>>> "pay" which >>>>> >> is definitely NOT how I pronounce {lerfu}. Maybe "air" is a bad >>>>> example. I >>>>> >> say {lerfu} such that the {er} part rymes with "pear" and NOT >>>>> "payer" >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Jonathan Jones >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> The Lojban sound-cluster that sounds like the English "air" is >>>>> {eir}, not >>>>> >>> {er}. .ebu is pronounced as the "e" in "b*e*tt*e*r", ""w*e*t", >>>>> "p*e*st", >>>>> >>> etc. The pronunciation example the CLL uses is "l*e*t"< >>>>> http://dag.github.com/cll/2/2/>, >>>>> >>>>> >>> "What is Lojban?" lists the pronunciation in IPA as "e [E] ([e]): a >>>>> front >>>>> >>> mid vowel" < >>>>> http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/phonapp.html>, >>>>> >>> "Lojban for Beginners" uses the example "g*e*t"< >>>>> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less1.html#less1vowels >>>>> >, >>>>> >>> and the English pronunciation guide uses the examples "b*e*t, >>>>> l*e*ns" >>>>> >>>>> >>> . >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Luke Bergen < >>>>> lukeabergen@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> Is it? I thought the {er} in {lerfu} is supposed to be pronounced >>>>> like >>>>> >>>> english "air" (but with the r being trilled or tapped or >>>>> whatever). I think >>>>> >>>> if I heard someone in lojban say {lrfu} as though it rymed with >>>>> "smurf-u" I >>>>> >>>> would laugh my zargu off. It's just so english-y sounding. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jonathan Jones < >>>>> eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> My point is that the "er" in "better" is pronounced comparably to >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> "er" in "lerfu". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn < >>>>> >>>>> rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I pronounce it as {betr} or if I'm enunciating as {betyr} >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Jones < >>>>> eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Do you pronounce the English word better as "betteir"? >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Viral Lamb < >>>>> jms1992@comcast.net>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> While trying to get back into learning lojban, I came across >>>>> >>>>>>>> something >>>>> >>>>>>>> I thought was rather important. When saying the word "lerfu" >>>>> (which >>>>> >>>>>>>> means letter I think) I noticed that it sounds like I'm saying >>>>> >>>>>>>> "leirfu" (even though that isn't a word xD ). >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I pronounce the letter "r" in lojban the same way I would in >>>>> english, >>>>> >>>>>>>> and I found that's the root of the problem. When pronouncing >>>>> the "e" >>>>> >>>>>>>> and "r" together, I can't help but say it like "leirfu". Using >>>>> a >>>>> >>>>>>>> "trilled r" such as in spanish or esperanto, the "e" sound >>>>> doesn't >>>>> >>>>>>>> turn into a "ei" sound. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there any other way to pronounce the "r" in lojban, cuz I >>>>> think I >>>>> >>>>>>>> can trill my "r"s most of the time, but I'm certainly not >>>>> perfect. >>>>> >>>>>>>> Trying to say "hamstron" the way the guy in this video says it >>>>> (1:15) >>>>> >>>>>>>> is certainly a challenge, yet good for practice. >>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCr1bV8kGk >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Is this a big problem, or am I making too big a fuss? >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google >>>>> >>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> >>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >>>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>> zo'o >>>>> >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google >>>>> >>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> >>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>> Alex R >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google >>>>> >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>> zo'o >>>>> >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google >>>>> >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> >>>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>> zo'o >>>>> >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> >>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> >> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> > >>>>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> > To post to this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --00151747bdba4ecc1604ab6e8599 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No. Similar sounds, not the same. Pronounce {er} in lojban like {er}, with = the "e" sound in "let". A syllabic "r" is pro= nounced with a short "schwa" sound- the sound .ybu makes. That= 9;s why syllabic "r" and {er} sound similar.

All Lojban vowels are always pronounced the same way they are in the Ro= mance languages (French, Spanish, Italian, Latin....), or, I recently learn= ed, the same way they are pronounced in Japanese (which is the same as the = Romance languages).

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Luke Bergen= <lukeabergen= @gmail.com> wrote:
fair enough. =A0So, basically I need to start pronouncing {er} in lojban li= ke a=A0syllabic=A0"r", correct?

I always felt = like I was "doing it wrong" when I pronounced lojban "er&quo= t; like I=A0pronounce=A0it in english as in "runner", "drink= er", etc... because I thought there should be a sound for {e} instead = of it just sounding like you need to drop the "e" and make the &q= uot;r" syllabic. =A0

blech, it still sounds wrong. =A0To me, the "er&qu= ot; in "runner" has zero "e" like in "let" so= und and that just feels wrong. =A0Right now it feels like I'm being tol= d "when you see 'er' drop the 'e'" and that just = sounds so wrong.

On Fri, Au= g 26, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wr= ote:
The problem with that statement is that you're assuming that "lr&q= uot; would always be pronounced like "ler". This isn't the ca= se. In the nonexistent {lrfu}, it sounds like {lerfu} because the "r&q= uot; is syllabic. A syllabic "r" is basically the same sound as &= quot;er" because it is pronounced with a short .ybu in front, {yr}, ki= nd of like the "ir" in "fir (tree)". That doesn't m= ean when {lr} occurs it is always pronounced like that: in {cilre}, for ins= tance, it is not a syllabic r - {cilre} isn't pronounced "sheel-e-= re", it's pronounced "sheel-re".

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at= 1:11 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
But it IS possible to have "lr" occur in a word and if "lr&q= uot; sounds identical to "ler" then lojban loses audio-visual=A0i= somorphism.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:
I don't= see how that's a problem. I can't imagine a scenario in which &quo= t;lrfu" would occur, let alone one in which it could be confused with = {lerfu}.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at= 12:47 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

If that&= #39;s the case than the lojban "lerfu" and "lrfu" sound= indistinguishable to me regardless of whether the r is trilled tapped or w= hathaveyou

On Aug 26, 2011 2:44 PM, "Jonathan Jon= es" <eyeonus= @gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, well, I'd = have to hear you say it, because I pronounce "pear", "pair&q= uot;,
> and "pare" the same: {peir}.
>
> Regardless, I&= #39;m pretty sure that your pronunciation of {lerfu} is incorrect,
> = because the "er" in {lerfu} should sound like the "er" = in payer".
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>
>> Ok, but at the same time, {ei} is described = as like the "ay" in "pay" which
>> is definitely NOT how I pronounce {lerfu}. Maybe "air" = is a bad example. I
>> say {lerfu} such that the {er} part rymes = with "pear" and NOT "payer"
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:>>
>>> The Lojban sound-cluster that sounds like the En= glish "air" is {eir}, not
>>> {er}. .ebu is pronounced as the "e" in "b*e*tt*= e*r", ""w*e*t", "p*e*st",
>>> etc= . The pronunciation example the CLL uses is "l*e*t"<http://dag.github.com/cl= l/2/2/>,

>>> "What is Lojban?" lists the pronunciation in IPA as = "e [E] ([e]): a front
>>> mid vowel" <http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/phonapp.html>= ;,
>>> "Lojban for Beginners" uses the example "g*e*t&= quot;<http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopou= djis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less1.html#less1vowels>,
>>> and the English pronunciation guide uses the examples "b*= e*t, l*e*ns"<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Pronunciation+= guide+in+English>

>>> .
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:1= 6 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>&g= t; Is it? I thought the {er} in {lerfu} is supposed to be pronounced like<= br> >>>> english "air" (but with the r being trilled or t= apped or whatever). I think
>>>> if I heard someone in lojb= an say {lrfu} as though it rymed with "smurf-u" I
>>>= > would laugh my zargu off. It's just so english-y sounding.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jonat= han Jones <eyeonu= s@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My po= int is that the "er" in "better" is pronounced comparab= ly to the
>>>>> "er" in "lerfu".
>>>&g= t;>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Alex Rozen= shteyn <
>>>>> rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I pronounce it as {betr} o= r if I'm enunciating as {betyr}
>>>>>>
>>= >>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you pronounce t= he English word better as "betteir"?
>>>>>>&= gt;
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Viral = Lamb <jms1992@c= omcast.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While tryi= ng to get back into learning lojban, I came across
>>>>>&= gt;>> something
>>>>>>>> I thought was rat= her important. When saying the word "lerfu" (which
>>>>>>>> means letter I think) I noticed that it so= unds like I'm saying
>>>>>>>> "leirfu&q= uot; (even though that isn't a word xD ).
>>>>>>&g= t;>
>>>>>>>> I pronounce the letter "r" in lo= jban the same way I would in english,
>>>>>>>> a= nd I found that's the root of the problem. When pronouncing the "e= "
>>>>>>>> and "r" together, I can't he= lp but say it like "leirfu". Using a
>>>>>>&= gt;> "trilled r" such as in spanish or esperanto, the "e&= quot; sound doesn't
>>>>>>>> turn into a "ei" sound.
>&= gt;>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there an= y other way to pronounce the "r" in lojban, cuz I think I
>>>>>>>> can trill my "r"s most of the ti= me, but I'm certainly not perfect.
>>>>>>>> = Trying to say "hamstron" the way the guy in this video says it (1= :15)
>>>>>>>> is certainly a challenge, yet good for pra= ctice.
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3DINCr1bV8kGk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is thi= s a big problem, or am I making too big a fuss?
>>>>>>= >>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>= >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=
>>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.=
>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to>>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email= to
>>>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
&= gt;>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>= ;>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>&g= t;>>> --
>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys= .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai = ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>&= gt;>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>= ;>>>> --
>>>>>>> You received this mes= sage because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>&g= t; Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>&g= t;>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>>&g= t;>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com.
>>>>>>> For more options, visit this= group at
>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>= ;>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>= ;>>>>> Alex R
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscrib= ed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners&= quot; group.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email = to l= ojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from = this group, send email to
>>>>>> lojban-begi= nners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>&= gt;>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?= hl=3Den.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>= ;>>>> --
>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
= >>>>>
>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Y= ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>&g= t;>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@goog= legroups.com.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, s= end email to
>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m.
>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>= ;>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginner= s?hl=3Den.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>= ;>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
>>>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>= ;>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>&= gt;> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>= ;>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners= ?hl=3Den.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>&g= t;>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.= e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are = subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Lojban Beginners"= ; group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@= googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> = lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>&= gt; For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You rece= ived this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this gr= oup, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubs= cribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
&g= t;> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://= groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .= aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi= .luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your f= ather. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To pos= t to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne= rs+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this g= roup at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den<= /a>.
>
=



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.=

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do= zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
=



--
mu'o mi&#= 39;e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk= . mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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