From lojban-beginners+bncCNuw69DKGRCtz-zyBBoElet-vw@googlegroups.com Sun Aug 28 22:46:47 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qxug4-0001Zu-C2; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:46:46 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf9617959gwb.16 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:46:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=x6pNYQmTPBp8NJGoIo6scp/4lM9x9/twp7AsS3SYmkc=; b=reYio2RtLVh3jRPs5p3eM1dExsyJcGe3g8246sMCy1mzvG2NT1AO56xU3rzm2LZAw2 RIOh5oQlUWNOgr5zXis1W6uklVSfQPsNaG3LJYCWez7XAYf63/cSri+k0gFIcGw1oU6G 0u9KN7YBzrhBjK95/YL80088kH7MNJFUCoL6U= Received: by 10.150.164.16 with SMTP id m16mr727296ybe.70.1314596781434; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.202.200 with SMTP id ff8ls3194831ibb.6.gmail; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.191.74 with SMTP id f50mr18733606yhn.1.1314596780653; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.109.2 with SMTP id h2msybc; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.69.34 with SMTP id w34mr685368agk.11.1314552686205; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <41f3563c-23b4-4c7b-96fc-8b5fcd11033a@z1g2000prf.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1) AppleWebKit/535.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/13.0.782.215 Safari/535.1,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <144c6f02-30c0-4257-88ab-5f2951c2fa48@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban "r" From: cybrown To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: cybrown@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been having this same problem myself, in working through Lojban for Beginners, since gerku is a common gismu used in that series. I find myself often saying geirku, but not quite the english "gay-r- koo." It makes me wonder if I should be saying "gerku" more like English "gir-koo" even though that's clearly a different "e" sound than the one I use in "le" (which I would spell as English "leh"). Should my gerku and lerfu sound like English "ir" sounds? If so then I don't know how I would tell them apart from gyrku and lyrfu, although my understanding is that those can't be real words anyway, right? On Aug 28, 1:18=C2=A0pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > Yeah I was showing what I understood syllabic r to sound like which is wh= y > it sounds so different. > > If the question is "which sounds more like e followed by r to me" then I > will vote for my "er" over the "er" of "runner" every time. > On Aug 28, 2011 10:26 AM, "tijlan" wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 28 August 2011 05:52, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> ugh. =C2=A0The way that I pronounced "r" in that audio had absolutely = ZERO "e" > in > >> it (at least to my ears). =C2=A0Arbitrarily dropping vowels in > >> word pronunciation just feels so friggin' unlojbanic that I'm a little > >> offput right now. > > > I take your audio as follows: > > > er [=C9=9B(=CB=90)r] > > eir [e=C9=AAr] > > r [=C9=9A=CB=90] > > lrfu [l=C9=99rfu] > > cirlrfu [=CA=83=C9=AArl=C9=99rfu] > > cirlerfu [=CA=83=C9=AArl=C9=9Brfu] > > > Samples for each IPA symbol:http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/ > > (Note that, for consonants, he is adding an actual vowel to > > illustrate different positional realizations, such that "r" --> [ra:] > > & [ara:] & [a:r] ) > > > I don't hear /e/ -- [e] or [=C9=9B] -- in your "r", but it sounds more = like > > a vowel than a consonant. And it's certainly not the [r] that you are > > using for the other words. > > > To be more hair-splitting as pertains to the "er/eir" issue: I hear, > > if I try, a slight lengthening of the /e/ in your "er", becoming > > closer to the length of "eir", but the vowels themselves seem still > > distinguishable in the way you pronounce them. > > > mu'o > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "Lojban Beginners" group.> To post to this group, send email to lojban-be= ginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit t= his group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.