From lojban-beginners+bncCJbznvHdFRCWru_yBBoEbhCF9A@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 29 11:15:01 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy6ML-0001H2-SG; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:15:01 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf6871531fxd.16 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nHWnUXWis6xUlvaENtV41tLXkrToJNU4vVEMGnYfQKQ=; b=zXkFhh2TRmXGtS2LodSXoniy6E7YvD2m0FQtyl4qTImOszMzMfmNOoM71SMBOwct9U bjClhnSrckaYh51reIxJheHb/7sbsUM8VhrY4dFSncHY9nHir6bJ6WKm0c9yknNTdT+5 bxQbJ3ZM6coQ1U9+/gAs9724w+jUHqsBqrKiY= Received: by 10.223.17.154 with SMTP id s26mr788929faa.44.1314641686233; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.39.211 with SMTP id h19ls3708057bke.2.gmail; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.141 with SMTP id k13mr676894bks.2.1314641684769; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.141 with SMTP id k13mr676893bks.2.1314641684741; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p10si1281222fak.1.2011.08.29.11.14.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.54; Received: by fxe4 with SMTP id 4so6060988fxe.41 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.64.205 with SMTP id f13mr1260087fai.3.1314641684442; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.87.71 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <144c6f02-30c0-4257-88ab-5f2951c2fa48@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> References: <41f3563c-23b4-4c7b-96fc-8b5fcd11033a@z1g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <144c6f02-30c0-4257-88ab-5f2951c2fa48@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:14:24 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban "r" To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517402dc29bacc504aba8de83 --001517402dc29bacc504aba8de83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What's so hard about pronouncing all Lojban 'e's the same? Or as close as surrounding sounds allow? stevo On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 1:31 PM, cybrown wrote: > I've been having this same problem myself, in working through Lojban > for Beginners, since gerku is a common gismu used in that series. I > find myself often saying geirku, but not quite the english "gay-r- > koo." It makes me wonder if I should be saying "gerku" more like > English "gir-koo" even though that's clearly a different "e" sound > than the one I use in "le" (which I would spell as English "leh"). > Should my gerku and lerfu sound like English "ir" sounds? If so then I > don't know how I would tell them apart from gyrku and lyrfu, although > my understanding is that those can't be real words anyway, right? > > On Aug 28, 1:18 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > Yeah I was showing what I understood syllabic r to sound like which is > why > > it sounds so different. > > > > If the question is "which sounds more like e followed by r to me" then = I > > will vote for my "er" over the "er" of "runner" every time. > > On Aug 28, 2011 10:26 AM, "tijlan" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 28 August 2011 05:52, Luke Bergen wrote: > > >> ugh. The way that I pronounced "r" in that audio had absolutely ZER= O > "e" > > in > > >> it (at least to my ears). Arbitrarily dropping vowels in > > >> word pronunciation just feels so friggin' unlojbanic that I'm a litt= le > > >> offput right now. > > > > > I take your audio as follows: > > > > > er [=C9=9B(=CB=90)r] > > > eir [e=C9=AAr] > > > r [=C9=9A=CB=90] > > > lrfu [l=C9=99rfu] > > > cirlrfu [=CA=83=C9=AArl=C9=99rfu] > > > cirlerfu [=CA=83=C9=AArl=C9=9Brfu] > > > > > Samples for each IPA symbol:http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/ > > > (Note that, for consonants, he is adding an actual vowel to > > > illustrate different positional realizations, such that "r" --> [ra:] > > > & [ara:] & [a:r] ) > > > > > I don't hear /e/ -- [e] or [=C9=9B] -- in your "r", but it sounds mor= e like > > > a vowel than a consonant. And it's certainly not the [r] that you are > > > using for the other words. > > > > > To be more hair-splitting as pertains to the "er/eir" issue: I hear, > > > if I try, a slight lengthening of the /e/ in your "er", becoming > > > closer to the length of "eir", but the vowels themselves seem still > > > distinguishable in the way you pronounce them. > > > > > mu'o > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > > "Lojban Beginners" group.> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit > this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --001517402dc29bacc504aba8de83 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What's so hard about pronouncing all Lojban 'e's the same?= Or as close as surrounding sounds allow?
=C2=A0
stevo
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 1:31 PM, cybrown <cybrown@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
I've been having this same p= roblem myself, in working through Lojban
for Beginners, since gerku is a= common gismu used in that series. I
find myself often saying geirku, but not quite the english "gay-r-
= koo." It makes me wonder if I should be saying "gerku" more = like
English "gir-koo" even though that's clearly a differ= ent "e" sound
than the one I use in "le" (which I would spell as English "= leh").
Should my gerku and lerfu sound like English "ir" = sounds? If so then I
don't know how I would tell them apart from gyr= ku and lyrfu, although
my understanding is that those can't be real words anyway, right?

On Aug 28, 1:18=C2=A0pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Y= eah I was showing what I understood syllabic r to sound like which is why> it sounds so different.
>
> If the question is "which sounds more like e followed by = r to me" then I
> will vote for my "er" over the "= ;er" of "runner" every time.
> On Aug 28, 2011 1= 0:26 AM, "tijlan" <jbot= ij...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
&= gt; > On 28 August 2011 05:52, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> ugh. = =C2=A0The way that I pronounced "r" in that audio had absolutely = ZERO "e"
> in
> >> it (at least to my ears). =C2=A0Arbitrarily droppi= ng vowels in
> >> word pronunciation just feels so friggin'= unlojbanic that I'm a little
> >> offput right now.
>= ;
> > I take your audio as follows:
>
> > er [=C9=9B(=CB= =90)r]
> > eir [e=C9=AAr]
> > r [=C9=9A=CB=90]
> &g= t; lrfu [l=C9=99rfu]
> > cirlrfu [=CA=83=C9=AArl=C9=99rfu]
>= > cirlerfu [=CA=83=C9=AArl=C9=9Brfu]
>
> > Samples for e= ach IPA symbol:http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/
> > (Note that, for consonants, he is adding an actual vowel to
&g= t; > illustrate different positional realizations, such that "r&quo= t; --> [ra:]
> > & [ara:] & [a:r] )
>
> >= ; I don't hear /e/ -- [e] or [=C9=9B] -- in your "r", but it = sounds more like
> > a vowel than a consonant. And it's certainly not the [r] that= you are
> > using for the other words.
>
> > To be= more hair-splitting as pertains to the "er/eir" issue: I hear, > > if I try, a slight lengthening of the /e/ in your "er",= becoming
> > closer to the length of "eir", but the vow= els themselves seem still
> > distinguishable in the way you prono= unce them.
>
> > mu'o
>
> > --
> > You receive= d this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>
&= gt; "Lojban Beginners" group.> To post to this group, send ema= il to lojban-beginners= @googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>
> lojban-begi= nners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this gr= oup at
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
><= br>
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send ema= il to lojban-beginners= @googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://gr= oups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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