From lojban-beginners+bncCM64ir3sAxCbzPPyBBoE4wEHnw@googlegroups.com Tue Aug 30 06:31:23 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QyOPP-0006ZG-IN; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:31:23 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf7578240fxd.16 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:31:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-mimeole:mime-version:subject:date :message-id:in-reply-to:x-ms-has-attach:x-ms-tnef-correlator :thread-topic:thread-index:from:to:x-scanned-by:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-class:content-type; bh=wgwU6w9Ah2Ovux/CAY7Ns6Yi67WDbd1FRqCXUxWD5PM=; b=ivbIsWqbIJpeGhswlKdU4Hm29eibplg7couSdL+vdX3oGwcB+oe7AgZNk6dA2Mh1Pb 6LQLccUlZ1bIwRsxuMcKpoxgoaEIGme6cJ0rTfvnT1/k1LRAy7LM907zF57pckk0sYtt VgiZIiNQCvUSVW0nYJmGxNy+oG6Y5meemqrAc= Received: by 10.223.50.85 with SMTP id y21mr654654faf.31.1314711067955; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:31:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.38.7 with SMTP id z7ls141293bkd.3.gmail; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.88 with SMTP id v24mr31171bkt.10.1314711066796; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.137.88 with SMTP id v24mr31170bkt.10.1314711066757; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cluster-b.mailcontrol.com (cluster-b.mailcontrol.com [85.115.56.190]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r28si2685475fag.3.2011.08.30.06.31.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk designates 85.115.56.190 as permitted sender) client-ip=85.115.56.190; Received: from aeacus.blackpool.gov.uk (aeacus.blackpool.gov.uk [195.188.21.21]) by rly08b.srv.mailcontrol.com (MailControl) with ESMTP id p7UDUXAE032274 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:30:59 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban "r" Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:30:17 +0100 Message-ID: <9DE5DB0988ED6C448E606734F5030D382F29DCA9@bbcmbmx01.blackpool.gov.uk> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban "r" Thread-Index: AcxnF5rwWlQpE59FQqyAvpFkwpI6FgAAROPA From: "Michael Eaton" To: X-Scanned-By: MailControl A-12-01-02 (www.mailcontrol.com) on 10.66.0.118 X-Original-Sender: michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk designates 85.115.56.190 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC6718.F4FBF453" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6718.F4FBF453 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personally, the most effective way I can think of to keep, for instance, 'l= rfu' and 'lerfu' distinct would be through inflection, rather than pronunci= ation - thereby ensuring you don't overlap with {eir}. =20 eg: =20 Lrfu =3D lerFU Lerfu =3D LERfu -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com [mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegrou= ps.com]On Behalf Of Luke Bergen Sent: 30 August 2011 14:18 To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban "r" When you said "lrfu" and "lerfu" are the same for you, you're effectively s= aying that either "lrfu" has an arbitrary "e" inserted OR you're saying tha= t "lerfu" drops the "e". Either way, it's discomfiting. On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Jonathan Jones < eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote: No. There is no silent e in "better". A silent e is one that makes no sound= . There is a silent e in "Euclid", "hate", "bite".=20 On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Viral Lamb < jms1992@comcast.net> wrote: you pronounce "er" like the "er" in "better"? That means your using a silent 'e'? On Aug 29, 6:01 pm, Jonathan Jones < eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote: > I pronounce {er} like in "bett*er*". I pronounce {eir} like in "*air*". T= he > two do not sound alike, and I don't have Luke's problem with thinking it > sounds too "Englishy" to pronounce {er} like that. > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Viral Lamb < jms1...@comcast.net> wrote: > > Uh, not being able to tell the difference between the 'e' and 'ei' > > sound because of the letter 'r' does have the potential for > > misunderstandings. This isn't just a "oh well its close enough", this > > goes very much against one of the founding principles of the language, > > audiovisual isomorphism. Considering all the different cmene, lujvo, > > and fu'ivla you could create, I see lots of room for this problem to > > crop up. > > > And no, its not just "some people" who have a problem pronouncing "er" > > and "eir" differently, its everyone from what I can see. I've yet to > > see how anyone "could" pronounce them differently. If anyone would > > like to prove me wrong I'm all ears. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as par= t of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. =20 Click here t= o report this email as spam. http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/This message has been scanned = for inappropriate or malicious content as part of the Council's e-mail and = Internet policies. ********************************************************= **********************See the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting = French visitors by clicking this link http://www.visitblackpool.com/jetaime= **************************************************************************= **** Be a responsible dog owner - Bag it, Bin it!=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6718.F4FBF453 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Personally, the most effective way I can think of to keep, = for=20 instance, 'lrfu' and 'lerfu' distinct would be through inflection, rather t= han=20 pronunciation - thereby ensuring you don't overlap with=20 {eir}.
 
eg:
 
Lrfu =3D lerFU
Lerfu =3D LERfu
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com=20 [mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Luke=20 Bergen
Sent: 30 August 2011 14:18
To:=20 lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginner= s]=20 Re: Lojban "r"

When you said "lrfu" and "lerfu" are t= he=20 same for you, you're effectively saying that either "lrfu" has an arbitra= ry=20 "e" inserted OR you're saying that "lerfu" drops the "e".  Either wa= y,=20 it's discomfiting.

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Jonathan Jones= =20 <eyeonus@gmail.com>=20 wrote:
No.=20 There is no silent e in "better". A silent e is one that makes no sound= .=20 There is a silent e in "Euclid", "hate", "bite".


On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Viral Lamb=20 <jms1992@comcast.net> wrote:
you=20 pronounce "er" like the "er" in "better"? That means your using=20 a
silent 'e'?

On Aug 29, 6:01 pm, Jonathan Jones <<= A=20 href=3D"mailto:eyeo...@gmail.com" target=3D_blank>eyeo...@gmail.com>=20 wrote:
> I pronounce {er} like in "bett*er*". I pronounce {eir}= like=20 in "*air*". The
> two do not sound alike, and I don't have Luke's problem wit= h=20 thinking it
> sounds too "Englishy" to pronounce {er} like=20 that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Viral Lamb <jms1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Uh, n= ot=20 being able to tell the difference between the 'e' and 'ei'
> &g= t;=20 sound because of the letter 'r' does have the potential for
> &= gt;=20 misunderstandings. This isn't just a "oh well its close enough",=20 this
> > goes very much against one of the founding principl= es of=20 the language,
> > audiovisual isomorphism. Considering all t= he=20 different cmene, lujvo,
> > and fu'ivla you could create, I = see=20 lots of room for this problem to
> > crop up.
>
>= ;=20 > And no, its not just "some people" who have a problem pronouncin= g=20 "er"
> > and "eir" differently, its everyone from what I can= see.=20 I've yet to
> > see how anyone "could" pronounce them=20 differently. If anyone would
> > like to prove me wrong I'm = all=20 ears.
>
> > --
> > You received this message= =20 because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Lojban= =20 Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to <= A=20 href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com"=20 target=3D_blank>lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > T= o=20 unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.>=20 > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3D= en.
>
>=20 --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo p= ilno=20 be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Sid= e!=20 Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog= le=20 Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email= to=20 lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscr= ibe=20 from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.For=20 more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3D= en.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno b= e denpa=20 bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur=20 father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he=20 Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send = email=20 to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscrib= e from=20 this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
F= or more=20 options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .

--
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To post to this group, send em= ail=20 to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, = send=20 email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more optio= ns,=20 visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


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Click here= =20 to report this email as spam.



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************************************************************************= ******
See the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting French visit= ors by
clicking this link http://www.visitblackpool.com/jetaime

************************************************************************= ******

Be a responsible dog owner - Bag it, Bin it!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
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