From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBD00vPyBBoE4gcoxA@googlegroups.com Tue Aug 30 06:45:39 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QyOdD-00074r-B1; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:39 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf11534055gwb.16 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=FsDXkYiCCpg3qIadWFtgFhsFBbAAwrUEVzG+cIt4ilI=; b=GDYJzOtcVDr7j/romh+EzieriWaDXFHi0hulONAA/7Jt3Bz3MNijms3UGJ3OngcXxa IApbp3eH7YLO3r0erM8bz8dsoS90rFLeH+19YR0C0Ep1VbQOEgfUbO27RrC3gZCqJxJE SxiDkjejeUWb7z6/pnCdFqVEv+QWUftKoBO34= Received: by 10.101.168.1 with SMTP id v1mr873899ano.36.1314711924480; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.249.16 with SMTP id w16ls290418anh.3.gmail; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.181.38 with SMTP id i38mr5079048anp.42.1314711922573; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.181.38 with SMTP id i38mr5079047anp.42.1314711922533; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f52.google.com (mail-gw0-f52.google.com [74.125.83.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n16si1208947ybm.2.2011.08.30.06.45.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.52; Received: by mail-gw0-f52.google.com with SMTP id 15so7807695gwj.11 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.180.130 with SMTP id j2mr32706029yhm.88.1314711921150; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:45:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.109.163 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:44:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9DE5DB0988ED6C448E606734F5030D382F29DCA9@bbcmbmx01.blackpool.gov.uk> From: Luke Bergen Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 09:44:59 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban "r" To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf305e24c30acb3104abb939a1 --20cf305e24c30acb3104abb939a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It sounds like this might be a more generic problem than just "er". Do you have trouble hearing a different between "ar" and "air" as well? Does "Vi" just tend to sound like "V" lengthened? Is this just a generic issue in linguistics in general? On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > That doesn't work. All Lojban words are penultimately stressed, excepting > specially marked cmene. > > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Michael Eaton < > michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote: > >> ** >> Personally, the most effective way I can think of to keep, for instance, >> 'lrfu' and 'lerfu' distinct would be through inflection, rather than >> pronunciation - thereby ensuring you don't overlap with {eir}. >> >> eg: >> >> Lrfu = lerFU >> Lerfu = LERfu >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com [mailto: >> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com]*On Behalf Of *Luke Bergen >> *Sent:* 30 August 2011 14:18 >> *To:* lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban "r" >> >> When you said "lrfu" and "lerfu" are the same for you, you're effectively >> saying that either "lrfu" has an arbitrary "e" inserted OR you're saying >> that "lerfu" drops the "e". Either way, it's discomfiting. >> >> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Jonathan Jones ****wrote: >> >>> No. There is no silent e in "better". A silent e is one that makes no >>> sound. There is a silent e in "Euclid", "hate", "bite". >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Viral Lamb ****wrote: >>> >>>> you pronounce "er" like the "er" in "better"? That means your using a >>>> silent 'e'? >>>> >>>> On Aug 29, 6:01 pm, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> > I pronounce {er} like in "bett*er*". I pronounce {eir} like in >>>> "*air*". The >>>> > two do not sound alike, and I don't have Luke's problem with thinking >>>> it >>>> > sounds too "Englishy" to pronounce {er} like that. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Viral Lamb >>>> wrote: >>>> > > Uh, not being able to tell the difference between the 'e' and 'ei' >>>> > > sound because of the letter 'r' does have the potential for >>>> > > misunderstandings. This isn't just a "oh well its close enough", >>>> this >>>> > > goes very much against one of the founding principles of the >>>> language, >>>> > > audiovisual isomorphism. Considering all the different cmene, lujvo, >>>> > > and fu'ivla you could create, I see lots of room for this problem to >>>> > > crop up. >>>> > >>>> > > And no, its not just "some people" who have a problem pronouncing >>>> "er" >>>> > > and "eir" differently, its everyone from what I can see. I've yet to >>>> > > see how anyone "could" pronounce them differently. If anyone would >>>> > > like to prove me wrong I'm all ears. >>>> > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> > > "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> > > To post to this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> > > For more options, visit this group at >>>> > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> > >>>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> >> >> http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ >> >> This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as >> part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. >> >> >> >> Click here to >> report this email as spam. >> >> >> >> http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ >> This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as >> part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. >> >> >> ****************************************************************************** >> See the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting French visitors by >> clicking this link http://www.visitblackpool.com/jetaime >> >> >> ****************************************************************************** >> ** >> >> Be a responsible dog owner - Bag it, Bin it! >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --20cf305e24c30acb3104abb939a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It sounds like this might be a more generic problem than just "er"= ;. =A0Do you have trouble hearing a different between "ar" and &q= uot;air" as well?

Does "Vi" just tend to = sound like "V" lengthened? =A0Is this just a generic issue in lin= guistics in general? =A0

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmai= l.com> wrote:
That doesn't work. All Lojban words are penultimately stressed, excepti= ng specially marked cmene.


On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Michael Eaton <michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote:
Personally, t= he most effective way I can think of to keep, for=20 instance, 'lrfu' and 'lerfu' distinct would be through infl= ection, rather than=20 pronunciation - thereby ensuring you don't overlap with=20 {eir}.
=A0
eg:
=A0
Lrfu =3D lerF= U
Lerfu =3D LER= fu
-----Ori= ginal Message-----
From:=20 lo= jban-beginners@googlegroups.com=20 [mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Luke=20 Bergen
Sent: 30 August 2011 14:18
To:=20 lo= jban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginner= s]=20 Re: Lojban "r"

When you said "lrfu&quo= t; and "lerfu" are the=20 same for you, you're effectively saying that either "lrfu" = has an arbitrary=20 "e" inserted OR you're saying that "lerfu" drops = the "e". =A0Either way,=20 it's discomfiting.

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Jonathan Jone= s=20 <eyeonus= @gmail.com>=20 wrote:
No.=20 There is no silent e in "better". A silent e is one that make= s no sound.=20 There is a silent e in "Euclid", "hate", "bite= ".


On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Viral Lamb= =20 <jms= 1992@comcast.net> wrote:
you=20 pronounce "er" like the "er" in "better"= ;? That means your using=20 a
silent 'e'?

On Aug 29, 6:01=A0pm, Jonathan Jones = <eyeo...@gmail.co= m>=20 wrote:
> I pronounce {er} like in "bett*er*". I prono= unce {eir} like=20 in "*air*". The
> two do not sound alike, and I don't have Luke's pro= blem with=20 thinking it
> sounds too "Englishy" to pronounce {er}= like=20 that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Viral Lamb <jms1...@comcast.net> w= rote:
> > Uh, not=20 being able to tell the difference between the 'e' and 'ei= '
> >=20 sound because of the letter 'r' does have the potential for> >=20 misunderstandings. This isn't just a "oh well its close enou= gh",=20 this
> > goes very much against one of the founding principl= es of=20 the language,
> > audiovisual isomorphism. Considering all t= he=20 different cmene, lujvo,
> > and fu'ivla you could create= , I see=20 lots of room for this problem to
> > crop up.
>
>= ;=20 > And no, its not just "some people" who have a problem = pronouncing=20 "er"
> > and "eir" differently, its ever= yone from what I can see.=20 I've yet to
> > see how anyone "could" pronoun= ce them=20 differently. If anyone would
> > like to prove me wrong I= 9;m all=20 ears.
>
> > --
> > You received this message= =20 because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Lo= jban=20 Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email= to = lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > To=20 unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > loj= ban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>=20 > For more options, visit this group at
> >htt= p://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>
>= =20 --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai k= o cmima lo pilno=20 be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot= Side!=20 Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog= le=20 Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, = send email to=20 lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe=20 from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe= @googlegroups.com.
For=20 more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com= /group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

=


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno = be denpa=20 bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I a= m your=20 father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he=20 Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this gr= oup, send email=20 to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from=20 this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@google= groups.com.
For more=20 options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the= =20 Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this grou= p, send email=20 to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, = send=20 email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
= For more options,=20 visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/

This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content a= s=20 part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies.

=A0

Click here=20 to report this email as spam.



=A0http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/
This message has = been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as part of the Council&= #39;s e-mail and Internet policies.

************************************************************************= ******
See the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting French visit= ors by
clicking this link http://www.visitblackpool.com/jetaime

************************************************************************= ******

Be a responsible dog owner - Bag it, Bin it!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e&#= 39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--20cf305e24c30acb3104abb939a1--