From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARDgg6DyBBoErxs-YQ@googlegroups.com Sun Aug 14 10:12:15 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QseEL-0006U5-MA; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:12:14 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf5584878fxd.16 for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:12:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=z6UtCfZ90xYpVVxk54fkw2QumGFMBH/seNm1Q3Yjk7c=; b=e4AzsrP2utDrGY+nUbHOVqaVh/lUCkkA2lvmlD+nMm5DjBMK8T7WHkvnwsV6xb25t/ XUkff4rsUqyu+gxL5y/TR6Cr3vcVdZcPW19WM/mJzY8Evanin5BWzOUixGApAqy6bZRv ag6YKUM52JAjt3LSrt2eZOMcQn2t6kXAm0X0E= Received: by 10.223.61.196 with SMTP id u4mr775044fah.34.1313341920086; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.154.210 with SMTP id p18ls3671604bkw.3.gmail; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.228.129 with SMTP id je1mr319598bkb.3.1313341918141; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.228.129 with SMTP id je1mr319597bkb.3.1313341918119; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y17si2475892fah.1.2011.08.14.10.11.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.54; Received: by fxe4 with SMTP id 4so4153585fxe.13 for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:11:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.66.91 with SMTP id m27mr4352488fai.7.1313341917925; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.70.137 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:11:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:11:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] example of lujvo-making? From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c3dac7c923e04aa7a3ee1 --0015174c3dac7c923e04aa7a3ee1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 tosmabru is a specific morphological problem, which does not actually come up very often, but is a "gotcha" when it does come up. Its most common form is CVCCVCCV, which would form if you had a CVC rafsi (like the hypothetical "tos") and a CVCCV gismu (like the hypothetical "mabru"), typically one that doesn't have a short form rafsi which ends in a vowel (since then you would use that and there wouldn't be a problem). What happens is a morphological ambiguity (actually it isn't an ambiguity, since a convention was adopted) between {tosmabru} and {to smabru}. If you notice, these do not differ in stress; {to} is unstressed, and in both cases the stressed vowel is the "a". The decision was made that the sounds in {tosmabru} split into {to smabru}, and that the correct lujvo is {tosymabru}, which is fine because {symabru} has an illegal usage of {y}, and so no fragmentation is possible. In short, if pulling a CV off the front of a lujvo would result in a phrase which does not differ in stress from the original word and which is a morphologically legal (not necessarily existent) word unto itself, you have a tosmabru failure. Consequently tosmabru can also apply to longer lujvo as well. .i .a'o sidju .i mu'o mi'e latros On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 12:37 PM, jongausib wrote: > coi roda jbopli, > > I'm not very good at lojban yet. However I like to think about the > meaning of words and so far I have entered a lot of lojban-swedish > entries in jbovlaste. > > Now I would like to translate some concepts into lujvo, but I'm not > quite sure how to get the lujvos right. I've read Lojban reference > grammar about lujvo-making (chapter 4, section 11), but I don't > understand the test for `tosmabru failure''. > (I do however understand everything else about considerations, lujvo- > scoring and place structure!). > > Could anyone please give me examples how to do these things right? > > ba ki'e > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0015174c3dac7c923e04aa7a3ee1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tosmabru is a specific morphological problem, which does not actually come = up very often, but is a "gotcha" when it does come up. Its most c= ommon form is CVCCVCCV, which would form if you had a CVC rafsi (like the h= ypothetical "tos") and a CVCCV gismu (like the hypothetical "= ;mabru"), typically one that doesn't have a short form rafsi which= ends in a vowel (since then you would use that and there wouldn't be a= problem).

What happens is a morphological ambiguity (actually it isn't an amb= iguity, since a convention was adopted) between {tosmabru} and {to smabru}.= If you notice, these do not differ in stress; {to} is unstressed, and in b= oth cases the stressed vowel is the "a". The decision was made th= at the sounds in {tosmabru} split into {to smabru}, and that the correct lu= jvo is {tosymabru}, which is fine because {symabru} has an illegal usage of= {y}, and so no fragmentation is possible.

In short, if pulling a CV off the front of a lujvo would result in a ph= rase which does not differ in stress from the original word and which is a = morphologically legal (not necessarily existent) word unto itself, you have= a tosmabru failure. Consequently tosmabru can also apply to longer lujvo a= s well.

.i .a'o sidju .i mu'o mi'e latros

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 12:37 PM, jongausib <= so.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:
coi roda jbopli,

I'm not very good at lojban yet. However I like to think about the
meaning of words and so far I have entered a lot of lojban-swedish
entries in jbovlaste.

Now I would like to translate some concepts into lujvo, but I'm not
quite sure how to get the lujvos right. I've read Lojban reference
grammar about lujvo-making (chapter 4, section 11), but I don't
understand the test for `tosmabru failure''.
(I do however understand everything else about considerations, lujvo-
scoring and place structure!).

Could anyone please give me examples how to do these things right?

ba ki'e

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