From lojban-beginners+bncCNCCoMTMDhCC3b_yBBoEEi0ptQ@googlegroups.com Sat Aug 20 10:27:46 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QupKf-0003H6-Ud; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:45 -0700 Received: by gyc15 with SMTP id 15sf5941407gyc.16 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=73GjKtquRHzm+wSSPlIutQoSo3a0lBt+hjUZoNx8bvg=; b=22IzGGJ8VKOrcH+ya1BH8K6NJtxGql7gJf+ZlgNSuhrAXbbkKhjrun2Aoc9LueZ1U/ 0sRqr5DH/iskpx+7NYDSFQDDFTEKocsss+84RCIP2iKJ0ut4objMKXmo8Rp5JyggB4wM 6sv9Jlcekhpe2ZviylUiWYJ7Oui3HCXjh+fng= Received: by 10.91.18.8 with SMTP id v8mr163270agi.35.1313861250173; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.73.132 with SMTP id q4ls3089711ibj.0.gmail; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.150.196 with SMTP id b4mr1144182icw.2.1313861249398; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.150.196 with SMTP id b4mr1144181icw.2.1313861249388; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f42.google.com (mail-pz0-f42.google.com [209.85.210.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kr11si12880268pbb.1.2011.08.20.10.27.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.42; Received: by mail-pz0-f42.google.com with SMTP id 37so11196239pzk.15 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.92.20 with SMTP id u20mr443173wfl.206.1313861249180; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.78.5 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <727abbdc-83b6-443d-93b0-d358f4dc4120@fv14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> References: <201108182249.48390.phma@phma.optus.nu> <727abbdc-83b6-443d-93b0-d358f4dc4120@fv14g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> From: Stela Selckiku Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:26:59 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Question about appropriateness of articles To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 10:59 PM, Jed wrote: > Why is "lo ponskina" okay? Just because it ends in a full-length > gismu? Because it ends in a rafsi that ends in a vowel. This can be helpful in remembering rafsi, since their shape has some meaning and isn't just a random fact. Whenever I look at the rafsi of a gismu, I think about them in terms of whether or not they can be used at the end of a lujvo. If a gismu has a good end rafsi, especially a one syllable one, that represents a whole rich family of potential lujvo. You can make hundreds of different really really short lujvo just by adding one other little syllable to that one. And if you add just two syllables, there's a ridiculous number of options-- for instance, you could add any of those aforementioned super short two-syllable lujvo, to make a quick three syllable three parter like {plixauvla} ("useful word", a recent invention of mine that I hope is a plixauvla!). So for instance when I look at the rafsi of {pensi} "think", I think to myself, "Aha, it has the rafsi -pei-! We can make a whole family of lujvo that are different kinds of thinking: (subject)pei & (style of thought)pei & (period of time)pei & etc." On the other hand more often all we'll have for short rafsi is one that ends in a consonant, like how with {skina} "video" all we have is -kin-. Then we have to think of what we can make the other way around: kin(method of observation) & kin(emotion) & kin(way of making) & etc. We have to have those rarer good end rafsi in mind here, because they're what we can combine with our non-end rafsi to make those two quick syllables. So for instance we've got -pei- in mind now, so we can make use of that as a base to put our -kin- on, and make {kinpei}, moviethink. I think it should mean when you imagine something by playing it like a movie in your mind! :D Now we just give in a jvajvo meaning: $p_1=s_3=s_4$ pensi $p_2=s_2$ ta'i lo nu $s_1$ noi ke'a simsa lo skina be vo'e cu xanri vo'a $p_1=s_3=s_4$ thinks about $p_2=s_2$ by imagining $s_1$ which is similar to a movie about it. But all that is just if you're looking for super short lujvo, of course. Every gismu has as one of its rafsi the whole gismu, which can only be used at the end of a lujvo and is a perfectly fine way to end a lujvo. We can still get up to a ridiculously huge number of useful combinations if we add a couple extra syllables, and four syllables isn't unreasonably long. So you can combine any of those two-syllable lujvo with any gismu as a base, to give us words like za'e {plixauskina} ("useful film", I guess). Here's another way to think about it: You are allowed to say {ponkin} in a lujvo, you just need to put something after it. So if you tack another piece on after -kin-, you can shave that syllable off of {skina} (and then use that saved moment later to do something productive instead of just standing around all day using two whole syllables to say {skina}). We can put a -zga- {zgana} "observe" on there, za'e {ponkinzga}, to watch a Japanese film. Now instead of saying {mi zgana lo ponskina} you can toss three syllables and just say {mi ponkinzga}. It actually simplifies things just a little bit that there's a somewhat limited selected of (short) end rafsi. The end rafsi is the one that most determines the place structure, especially in jvajvo. So if you at least get that one, you might be able to understand how the lujvo fits into the sentence. And of course if you just use a rafsi with a consonant at the end, you get a cmevla, but one that looks like a lujvo. I call those {jvosmicmevla}. A jvosmicmevla could mean anything at all, but it is possible that it's a name for something related to that lujvo, because we do name things like that sometimes. So it's not that you're not allowed to use those shapes, you just have to use them differently. :) mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.