From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDH3cbyBBoEX-34Mg@googlegroups.com Sun Aug 21 18:20:23 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QvJBb-0007tm-Bp; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:22 -0700 Received: by qyk33 with SMTP id 33sf3989256qyk.16 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AtJfhZYlXiLRJi4oHmiNkc7cC9I1w+PsOoRSuWoz05Q=; b=TmuUb1VImd2zxnvJvqAmB5NNKyxQ902OgmMhqEfrbdV3kOBg/eajmgnwh+QOifubI9 7K2YrMM5aCFRisCZb8/8M0yfRWO7aqrrvSyhkiNfW63FVxEocbiht7OEvfbOceAAN2yF +YhtPsykX1IzP7JFwe/ap1sS5/usci+3BQEtA= Received: by 10.224.204.9 with SMTP id fk9mr244632qab.36.1313976007454; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.89.4 with SMTP id c4ls10654628qam.1.gmail; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.213.1 with SMTP id gu1mr1396280qab.20.1313976005094; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.213.1 with SMTP id gu1mr1396279qab.20.1313976005084; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f177.google.com ([209.85.220.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m27si2724218qcz.2.2011.08.21.18.20.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.177; Received: by vxj2 with SMTP id 2so4623008vxj.36 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.94.109 with SMTP id db13mr1738363vdb.366.1313976004797; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.101.170 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:20:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <615d59ab-b73d-465e-a9b3-aa1e46979126@df3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> References: <615d59ab-b73d-465e-a9b3-aa1e46979126@df3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 22:20:04 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Tenses and Event Contours From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 8:51 PM, volcpitar wrote: > > I take it that you are mixing meaning and pragmatics, and I somewhat > understand. =A0I am having some difficulty, however, since my sense of > English (or Spanish for that matter) is a little different from what > you describe. =A0For me, the English present perfect tense (or the > equivalent in Spanish or Chinese) refer to things that have relevancy > to the presence, but which may have occurred at any indefinite time in > the past. =A0If I say: "I have been to Paris," there is no sense of > aftermath, but rather merely that the past event has some bearing on > present circumstances. =A0Scientist say that the entire earth has been > covered in snow and ice, and yet they are referring to a time hundreds > of millions of years ago. Which is recent by Earth's age standards. "Relevance" is exactly right. More recent is usually more likely to be relevant, but there's no indication in "ba'o" about any time magnitude. That's done with zi/za/zu. > From the description of {pu'o}, I first took it to mean "have yet to," > "have not yet," "be bound to" and was surprised to see the meaning of > "going to." =A0"I have yet to" and "I am going to" seem both to be > covered by the explanations of {pu'o}, but their pragmatics are almost > opposite in character. "have yet to" has no indication of ever going to. In my reading of "[ca] pu'o" there's an indication that things are already in motion for the event to happen (which is not to say that it will end up actually happening). > If {pu'o} and {ba'o} pragmatically imply some lead up to an event and > its aftermath, respectively, this seems quite different from the > indefinite period before or after the event. =A0This difference seems > more important when these words are used as sumti tcita. I never use them as sumti tcita. Their official definition is contrary to the definition of all other tags, so in order to avoid confusion I just don't use them there. >=A0For > instance, what would this mean: =A0{mi nupre lo nu mi ba'o lo cabdei > cusku fo lo po'o lojbo}? In my reading: "I promise to have said [something] today in Lojban only". But to avoid confusion I would say instead: "mi nupre lo nu mi ba'o cusku ca lo cabdei fo lo po'o lojbo". With CLL's reading, I suppose it would mean "I promise to say [something] in Lojban only when today is over". >=A0If {ba'o} refers only to the indefinite > "aftermath" of =A0today, then the content of my promise/threat is > pragmatically limited in time. =A0If {ba'o} refers to all time after > today, them my promise/threat refers to forever, beginning as of the > end of today. For the "forever" promise I think maybe something like: mi nupre lo nu co'a lo mo'u cabdei ro da poi mi cusku ke'a cu te bangu mi lo lojbo >=A0Similar, what does this mean: {lo danlu ba mrobi'o pu'o > lo nu lo fagri klama}? (You need "cu" before "klama".) With my reading: "Animals will be about to die when the fire comes." > Does this imply the animals will die as the > fire is about to arrive (implying a connection) or merely that they > will die some time before it arrives (implying a lack of a > connection)? I would say there have to be signs that the fire will come. But the way I would say it is "lo danlu ba mrobi'o ca lo nu lo fagri pu'o klama". > =A0Evacuating before a hurricane is quite a different > experience depending on whether you are doing it during the lead up or > before it has come anywhere near. =A0How would you say: "Get out before > the hurricane comes!" "ko cliva pu lo nu co'a tsali brife" > I hope I am not coming across as difficult. =A0I have studied a number > of languages from different language families, many of which use > aspect in important ways. =A0I am trying not to impose any of those > views on Lojban, however, I am sensitive to the fact that aspects can > be slippery to work with. I don't think we have enough usage yet to say what exactly will be all the subtleties of Lojban aspects. >=A0Also, Lojban seems to have side-stepped the > issue of lexical aspect, or aktionsart, and this makes it somewhat > difficult to analyze using some analogies with expressions in natural > languages. Yes. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.