Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]:47685)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCS8-7zBBoEOgMBMA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1R6rxU-0001Ff-Np; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:41:38 -0700
Received: by fxg17 with SMTP id 17sf3835398fxg.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:41:24 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=ufWoDAhmi0o94JCpDZEvqcnA0SsEMLLLgs7OPnzTBIk=;
        b=dzz+LAzDrVmIkxtUpYcbFuMPOHaPOMbvzbYlP23HAdY8Ob4xTwtK4wNd+EnAz10Dyz
         80XAaVK+36d15TQ1sXaagp7amYnXREBQK7eL1C93MgaRP2kC/MLCMDmOc8nqHCw7AXbC
         X0oVXcVg/ymzxv67+M86ToB7rTFUUBO4srsck=
Received: by 10.223.31.133 with SMTP id y5mr742376fac.26.1316731282775;
        Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:41:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.204.134.87 with SMTP id i23ls789670bkt.2.gmail; Thu, 22 Sep
 2011 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.137.209 with SMTP id x17mr623250bkt.13.1316731281426;
        Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.137.209 with SMTP id x17mr623249bkt.13.1316731281409;
        Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-fx0-f41.google.com (mail-fx0-f41.google.com [209.85.161.41])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f27si1401330faf.2.2011.09.22.15.41.21
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.41;
Received: by fxh17 with SMTP id 17so3218888fxh.28
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.223.6.77 with SMTP id 13mr3813889fay.135.1316731177618; Thu,
 22 Sep 2011 15:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.152.39.35 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <20110922035512.GA23348@gonzales>
References: <20110918213323.GB6878@gonzales>
	<CAO7tK2cZuVV-1+UMZpyeitXt+waox6SskNyYUWAzNUN-EuSMTA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110919013653.GC6878@gonzales>
	<CAO7tK2cAG0okZRcop0CiHTs0f-HsS-PmKkQb1ZwiWBDOLMDXQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110919231314.GI4310@gonzales>
	<CAO7tK2e=vhmx6r66-hJb0AW1siHFYSn-YMxpZTo6Jh_oC5dXwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110920034640.GK4310@gonzales>
	<CAO7tK2eafjESM0EE5527LVa61wB_rL7GX38W2KdQxgzk7fBmBw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110921011503.GS4310@gonzales>
	<CAO7tK2c9wFGEj6m_Bu6gHxKc7uaiLviwoO9jASkf7_Z55u4r2g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110922035512.GA23348@gonzales>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 19:39:37 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2cppW2CKqsY=5DZipvrM5uSKCGvJpyd94zQWnn=nXHiQw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.41 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> * Wednesday, 2011-09-21 at 19:08 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gma=
il.com>:
>
>> >> =A0 =A0 ro klesi be lo gerku cu gerku
>
>> The problem with saying it is false is that if "lo blabi gerku
>> cu klesi lo gerku" is true, and "lo blabi gerku cu gerku" is also
>> true, it's hard to say why at least "su'o klesi be lo gerku cu gerku"
>> would not be true.
>
> But we already have the same kind of weirdness with plurals:
> lo gerku remei cu remei .i je lo gerku remei cu gerku .i je ku'i ro
> remei na ku gerku remei

.i su'o boi re mei ja'a gerku re mei .i mu'a lo gunma be lo re gerku
be'o noi re mei cu gerku re mei

> Generally: you can't quantify over plurals (assuming we agree to the
> extent I'm under the impression we do on how plurals work); not being
> able to quantify kinds is a similar kind of restriction.

I do think we agree that Lojban quantifiers are singular (you could
quantify over plurals with plural quantifiers, which Lojban apparently
doesn't have).

And I agree that a plural constant cannot be a witness for the
singular existential quantifier.

So you would be saying that "lo pa klesi be lo gerku" is to be treated
as plural?


>> It could. So in your system "lo du'u ko'a ckaji lo ka broda na nibli
>> lo du'u ko'a broda" is true, right?
>
> Depends what you mean... for any predicate broda, I would want that to
> be false. But {se tuple re da} is not just a predicate in the above uses
> - it introduces an existential, and (part of) the question is what scope
> that existential has. Stuffing it inside a {lo ka} prevents it from
> scoping over the {lo remna}.

For me "lo remna" is a constant, so there is no scoping over it. What about=
:

lo remna zo'u re da zo'u da tuple ry
"As for humans, there are two things that be-leg them."

Would that be enough to keep your "lo remna" outside the scope of "re"?

> But wait, I was missing something obvious.
>
> You can still use {lo}:
> {ro da poi na'e xanto se danlu zo'u lo xanto cu bramau lo tumla danlu be =
da}.

Sure, that works too. Most predicates don't come with a built-in
subkind place though:

  lo smoka cu cmamau ro drata taxfu

But you could appeal to fi'o klesi:

  ro da poi na'e smoka klesi lo taxfu zo'u lo smoka cu cmamau lo taxfu
be fi'o klesi da

Would you agree that "lo se danlu cu klesi lo danlu"?


>> At this point
>> we seem to have different results for at least some cases.
>
> You mean the question of whether a pure-kind predication can block an
> existential or generic reading?

(I was thinking of the issue of what things can or cannot be values of
singular variables.)

> This does seem a fairly minor issue. If we could agree that {lo} is
> ambiguous between those three things with the property case taking
> precedence when it makes sense, I'd be happy.

I prefer the Carlson/Chierchia analysis where it is not ambiguous, but
since we end up getting the same results, that one does seem to be a
minor issue.

> (well, not wholly happy until I understood how the generic predication
> case works, and how to unambiguously make generic predications... but
> that's another issue)
>
> This precedence issue aside, and the kind-quantification issue also
> aside, are there any sentences for which your understanding of {lo}
> gives meanings different from those given by the ambiguity-based
> approach?

I don't know enough to answer that. So far the one major difference
seems to be the quantification over subkinds cases.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.