Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]:37221) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1R8JFE-0000Nn-M9; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:55 -0700 Received: by fxg17 with SMTP id 17sf7785795fxg.16 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=yQa3R9shpEqwXep38Ysu2YF5rGW9jZDTOZ8QMFGTNx4=; b=sUSF3fftIZuRrmxlEXnKeQTll/SuHczG8xblwk8fbcohsU2Nm4uOjDQOZtehsoObUd mGsddco8VUjbtPKWbfSAfLs0MaBeZtFJDnkcQFRAGtJc1FXitUX5ei8kZb1y4BlV6mgG hObRynUexIriO+cUvyRLQAh20dPsWfnmcYN+k= Received: by 10.223.42.141 with SMTP id s13mr1420610fae.7.1317074499827; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.135.155 with SMTP id n27ls3921207bkt.0.gmail; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.144.154 with SMTP id z26mr1599897bku.10.1317074498580; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.144.154 with SMTP id z26mr1599896bku.10.1317074498542; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f48.google.com (mail-fx0-f48.google.com [209.85.161.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k16si3665484fah.0.2011.09.26.15.01.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.48; Received: by mail-fx0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 23so9287219fxd.35 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.54.202 with SMTP id r10mr375786fag.114.1317074498386; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.74.197 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3b5e0b1d-a58d-44ac-ae3f-a46ccdb2a8ed@t11g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> References: <3b5e0b1d-a58d-44ac-ae3f-a46ccdb2a8ed@t11g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:01:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] English From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174764d69e7cef04addf4ded X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --0015174764d69e7cef04addf4ded Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Capitalization: meh. {la} and {.i} and {ni'o} are better than capitalization in my book. Soulless: I couldn't disagree more. Lojban is lively; it's full of life and zest. Attitudinals can be dropped in anywhere to spice up a sentence; flexibility of syntax keeps things mixed up plenty. English loses some of its *grammatical* soul because it has so many restrictions that pop up mid-sentence. It doesn't conform rigidly to rules but if you don't conform reasonably to a rather extensive set of rules, you get a sentence that is at best awkward and at worst severely ambiguous. ("I used one of the things that Joe proved completely incorrectly" is a real world example, which actually offended "Joe" until I explained.) Unemotional: again, no. The lack of ambiguity in Lojban is in its syntax and grammar; a phoneme stream parses in exactly zero or one ways. It is not necessarily *read* in exactly zero or one ways. This is a fundamental distinction between *ambiguity* and *vagueness*. Not all meaning must be specified in Lojban, but what meaning is specified cannot be interpreted entirely differently from how it was intended by the speaker. Hence Lojban can (and very very often is) vague, but cannot be ambiguous. I think your love of ambiguity is probably actually a love of vagueness. Whether we need it or not: No one ever claimed that we needed it. It's perhaps been claimed that it can be useful, but I'd say the only thing which is outright universally asserted is that its students enjoy learning it (which is of course circular, since few would study a conlang for very long if they weren't interested.) mu'o mi'e latros On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 5:28 PM, John Smith wrote: > I don't know about lojban. I just don't know. I mean, what kind of > language isn't even capitalized? An unimportant one, that's what, or > at least that's what I learned in first grade. Important things are > capitalized. > > I don't know a lot about this language, but I think it's kind of > soulless. Oh, yeah, I know, you've heard it all before, but the thing > Spock didn't realize was that being completely logical IS the best > thing to do, IF you account for emotions. Marrying someone to find > out about their species? That's about the least logical thing I've > ever heard. You have to realize that there's more to things than just > cold, hard logic. > > I think English is awesome. All the other languages make quite a bit > of sense, but English, no, English is like the badass language. It > doesn't conform to rules. It makes no sense at all. Like, for > example, a while ago I discovered that an alternate spelling for > "Medieval" is "Mediaeval." How awesome is that?!? Seriously, that's > so cool, when you spell it like that, it seems like you're actually > some mediaeval knight or something who spells things weird. > > Who cares about unambiguity? I love ambiguity. Ambiguity is great. > > And you know what else? It has to do with the feeling of "support" > for words. Like, instead of saying old, say olde, or colour instead > of color. The modern words are all "new" and "chic," but they don't > have that supporting spurious letter to give them that English feel to > them. It feels like the old words are heavy fortresses with > spuriousness that makes it strong and firm, but the moderns say, > "Hey! We don't NEED those letters. They're unnecessary. Let's get > rid of 'em!" So now, the words no longer feel strong and firm; now > they feel like they're hanging by a thread, supporting themselves, but > barely. > > See what I did there?? I put a semicolon! I love semicolons! > Whatever happened to semicolons? Also, whatever happened to starting > questions with "whatever" instead of just "what?" Or putting end > punctuation marks inside quotation marks even when it doesn't make > sense (technically proper grammar, actually)? What fun is having no > punctuation? No fun, that's what! Punctuation is awesome! Why would > you want to get rid of it? > > One of the things I really don't like about lojban is that there are > no capital letters! What is that? I love capital letters. And > what's more, I'm sure that if they DID use capital letters, they would > call them uppercase letters and abolish the word "capital!" How lame > is that?! Haven't you ever said to someone, "Capital day, isn't it?" > Sounds cool, don't it? > > In conclusion, I think lojban has its advantages and disadvantages, > but really, do we really need it? We already have perfectly good > languages. I think people do this for fun, thinking, "Ha! I've > removed tiny problems from language. All the tiniest inconsistencies > have been eliminated." I think the problem is that it's > reductionist. That is all. > > P.S.: Whatever happened to "Yes! yes! yes!"? Is that cool or what? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174764d69e7cef04addf4ded Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capitalization: meh. {la} and {.i} and {ni'o} are better than capitaliz= ation in my book.

Soulless: I couldn't disagree more. Lojban is = lively; it's full of life and zest. Attitudinals can be dropped in anyw= here to spice up a sentence; flexibility of syntax keeps things mixed up pl= enty. English loses some of its *grammatical* soul because it has so many r= estrictions that pop up mid-sentence. It doesn't conform rigidly to rul= es but if you don't conform reasonably to a rather extensive set of rul= es, you get a sentence that is at best awkward and at worst severely ambigu= ous. ("I used one of the things that Joe proved completely incorrectly= " is a real world example, which actually offended "Joe" unt= il I explained.)

Unemotional: again, no. The lack of ambiguity in Lojban is in its synta= x and grammar; a phoneme stream parses in exactly zero or one ways. It is n= ot necessarily *read* in exactly zero or one ways. This is a fundamental di= stinction between *ambiguity* and *vagueness*. Not all meaning must be spec= ified in Lojban, but what meaning is specified cannot be interpreted entire= ly differently from how it was intended by the speaker. Hence Lojban can (a= nd very very often is) vague, but cannot be ambiguous. I think your love of= ambiguity is probably actually a love of vagueness.

Whether we need it or not: No one ever claimed that we needed it. It= 9;s perhaps been claimed that it can be useful, but I'd say the only th= ing which is outright universally asserted is that its students enjoy learn= ing it (which is of course circular, since few would study a conlang for ve= ry long if they weren't interested.)

mu'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Sep = 26, 2011 at 5:28 PM, John Smith <thantophobia295@gmail.com> wrote:
=
I don't know about lojban. =A0I just don't know. =A0I mean, what ki= nd of
language isn't even capitalized? =A0An unimportant one, that's what= , or
at least that's what I learned in first grade. =A0Important things are<= br> capitalized.

I don't know a lot about this language, but I think it's kind of soulless. =A0Oh, yeah, I know, you've heard it all before, but the thin= g
Spock didn't realize was that being completely logical IS the best
thing to do, IF you account for emotions. =A0Marrying someone to find
out about their species? =A0That's about the least logical thing I'= ve
ever heard. =A0You have to realize that there's more to things than jus= t
cold, hard logic.

I think English is awesome. =A0All the other languages make quite a bit
of sense, but English, no, English is like the badass language. =A0It
doesn't conform to rules. =A0It makes no sense at all. =A0Like, for
example, a while ago I discovered that an alternate spelling for
"Medieval" is "Mediaeval." =A0How awesome is that?!? = =A0Seriously, that's
so cool, when you spell it like that, it seems like you're actually
some mediaeval knight or something who spells things weird.

Who cares about unambiguity? =A0I love ambiguity. =A0Ambiguity is great.
And you know what else? =A0It has to do with the feeling of "support&q= uot;
for words. =A0Like, instead of saying old, say olde, or colour instead
of color. =A0The modern words are all "new" and "chic,"= but they don't
have that supporting spurious letter to give them that English feel to
them. =A0It feels like the old words are heavy fortresses with
spuriousness that makes it strong and firm, but the moderns say,
"Hey! =A0We don't NEED those letters. =A0They're unnecessary. = =A0Let's get
rid of 'em!" =A0So now, the words no longer feel strong and firm; = now
they feel like they're hanging by a thread, supporting themselves, but<= br> barely.

See what I did there?? =A0I put a semicolon! =A0I love semicolons!
Whatever happened to semicolons? =A0Also, whatever happened to starting
questions with "whatever" instead of just "what?" =A0Or= putting end
punctuation marks inside quotation marks even when it doesn't make
sense (technically proper grammar, actually)? =A0What fun is having no
punctuation? =A0No fun, that's what! =A0Punctuation is awesome! =A0Why = would
you want to get rid of it?

One of the things I really don't like about lojban is that there are no capital letters! =A0What is that? =A0I love capital letters. =A0And
what's more, I'm sure that if they DID use capital letters, they wo= uld
call them uppercase letters and abolish the word "capital!" =A0Ho= w lame
is that?! =A0Haven't you ever said to someone, "Capital day, isn&#= 39;t it?"
Sounds cool, don't it?

In conclusion, I think lojban has its advantages and disadvantages,
but really, do we really need it? =A0We already have perfectly good
languages. =A0I think people do this for fun, thinking, "Ha! =A0I'= ve
removed tiny problems from language. =A0All the tiniest inconsistencies
have been eliminated." =A0I think the problem is that it's
reductionist. =A0That is all.

P.S.: =A0Whatever happened to "Yes! yes! yes!"? =A0Is that cool o= r what?

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--
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